To the people who bash Bush here's what we had

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Pontius
that makes no sense. OJ SHOULD be in jail. you want me to do the job that it would take a whole team of federal prosecutors and numerous capitol hill hearings to do to show you that Bush should be impeached? sorry, not going to put all that together for you, but the truth is out there if you care to investigate it at all for yourself. Bush lied to get the American public stirred up for war, you can keep your head in the sand about that if you want to. just like he lied to the people about how illegal immigrants are so important to this country.
Lying is not a crime...ALL politicians have done this for the past 100 years. You keep bringing up lying...however I see no mandate for this as a criminal action unless done under oath in an act of perjury (hence Clinton). Lying to the public is what all politicians do to get elected.
Just one federal statute is all you have to come up with...I can tell you what laws were violated under the Clinton impeachment and the near NIXON impeachment....Just one law is all you have to show. Screaming "impeach him" for lying is ridiculous, then hell, half the senate would be impeached and every president in history as the all have lied....

 

[darthtang aw]

And, no OJ should NOT be in jail...the prosecution and police department had an inept/botched up case. Under our law you have to be proven guilty....the law could not do that....Do I think he is guilty? yes, but due to the circumstances and questions surrounding the case it was not enough to convict him...so he should not be in jail.
However I wouldn't mind if he had his head removed from his shoulders in an auto accident that his brakes just happen to fail in.

 

[nvmycj]

POLITICS & RELIGION...........two topics that friends shouldn't attempt to talk or debate about.

Unless otherwise, don't plan on being friends any longer........
But I still love you guys!!!

 

[seasalt101]

though we agree and disagree sometimes i have no ill will towards the debaters on this site and i believe we all enjoy the banter...tobin

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
Lying is not a crime...ALL politicians have done this for the past 100 years. You keep bringing up lying...however I see no mandate for this as a criminal action unless done under oath in an act of perjury (hence Clinton). Lying to the public is what all politicians do to get elected.
Just one federal statute is all you have to come up with...I can tell you what laws were violated under the Clinton impeachment and the near NIXON impeachment....Just one law is all you have to show. Screaming "impeach him" for lying is ridiculous, then hell, half the senate would be impeached and every president in history as the all have lied....
why don't you tell the mothers of 3500 dead US soldiers that "screaming 'impeach him' for lying is ridiculous"? he lied about reasons we should go to war while keeping his true motives....his big business buddies...hidden.

 

[reckler]

IMO... This is how I see it...
Everyone complains about everyone in the world. You would complain about me and my opinions if you had the chance too. Clinton lied to the citizens of the US and to his own family. Personally I wouldn't trust him again, or his wife for that matter. Bush is all about money. bottom line if it will benefit him he does it no matter who is in the way.
Why worry about everyone else in this world and complain about what they do. Everyone has faults no one is exempt...
I think we should work with what we have and make this country good for ourselves not our communist so call government..
I don't involve myself with politics because they are all out for your demize anyway.
That is my opinion!
Make your home better by saying hi to your neighbors, helping someone in need,or even trying to understand someone else's point of views instead of picking fights with them.
We don't need to be ruled with whips and chains, just taught morals properly.
Ron

 

[nvmycj]

Originally Posted by Pontius
why don't you tell the mothers of 3500 dead US soldiers that "screaming 'impeach him' for lying is ridiculous"? he lied about reasons we should go to war while keeping his true motives....his big business buddies...hidden.
Gosh darnit,........we don't you anti-military, anti-war folks get it. It is a voluntary force. No one got drafted. They went to their recruiter and signed up, for purposes of school, career, or no where else to go. It's their job. They'll go back again, when asked. And some volunteer to go back. I've been there, done that.
C'mon dude......mommy's got nothing to do with impeaching a president! The lose of any soldier's life, however tragic it might be, was done as part of their voluntary duty assignment. Dammit man, THEY ATTACKED US ON OUR SOIL!!! This tree huggin', hippy talk crap is crazy.
If you believe he lied, so be it. Lying is not breaking the law. All politicians lie. They tell you stuff you wanna hear to get your vote. Not any one, single politician is gonna make the entire nation happy. Someone's feelings are always gonna get hurt, or someone's is always gonna disagree. You adapt and overcome, and move on.

 

[nvmycj]

Originally Posted by seasalt101
though we agree and disagree sometimes i have no ill will towards the debaters on this site and i believe we all enjoy the banter...tobin
Glad to hear that!

 

[nvmycj]

Originally Posted by reckler
IMO... This is how I see it...
Everyone complains about everyone in the world. You would complain about me and my opinions if you had the chance too. Clinton lied to the citizens of the US and to his own family. Personally I wouldn't trust him again, or his wife for that matter. Bush is all about money. bottom line if it will benefit him he does it no matter who is in the way.
Why worry about everyone else in this world and complain about what they do. Everyone has faults no one is exempt...
I think we should work with what we have and make this country good for ourselves not our communist so call government..
I don't involve myself with politics because they are all out for your demize anyway.
That is my opinion!
Make your home better by saying hi to your neighbors, helping someone in need,or even trying to understand someone else's point of views instead of picking fights with them.
We don't need to be ruled with whips and chains, just taught morals properly.
Ron

....and how about a prayer or two.....? Or did I just open up a new thread?

 

[reefraff]

Bush lost me with this immigration bill crapola. That on top of the runaway spending he has allowed the last 6 years.
Hate to break it to you but with the info we had at the time going into Iraq was a reasonable action to take. The overwhelming majority of Democrats who voted in favor of military action where in office during the Clinton administration and were receiving reports then that indicated Iraq was building up WMD's again. For what its worth several hundred shells with sarin and mustard gas were found in Iraq after the war but thats the tip of the needle compared to what was expected to be found there.
After 9-11 Iraq was known to be looking for ways to make terrorist style attacks on US interests. Russias anti war pres Vladimer Putin has said he personally passed information Russian intellegence agencies had about this to Washington which backed up reports US and other agencies had, we're talkin multiple sources here. Why would he lie? He was dead set against the war.
Agents of the Iraq government were known to have had contacts with Al Queda members including Bin Laden. After the war even with full access to the country the best the 9-11 commision could do was say the meetings didn't apear to result in a colabrative relationship. Before the war who could possibly say what was going on?
So you have a country with WMD capabilities at least that is known to be looking at ways to make terrorist style attacks on US interests. They had contacts with the terrorist group that had just hit the US, They had no issue with publically supporting Palestenian terrorists and had fired on UN sanctioned peace keeping forces in the no fly zone numerous times. I would say that was a threat.
Now where Bush loses me on this is when he said knowing what he knows now he would do it all over again. Knowing what we know now we should have invaded the United Nations and threw out all the crooks so the oil for gas program would have actually had it's intended effect

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by NVMYCJ
THEY ATTACKED US ON OUR SOIL!!! This tree huggin', hippy talk crap is crazy.

IRAQ NEVER EVER ATTACKED US!!! I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE JUSTIFIED WAR IN AFGHANISTAN I'M TALKING ABOUT THE WAR IN IRAQ THAT BUSH STARTED TO MAKE HIS BUDDIES MORE $!!!

 

[pontius]

Originally Posted by reefraff
Bush lost me with this immigration bill crapola. That on top of the runaway spending he has allowed the last 6 years.
Hate to break it to you but with the info we had at the time going into Iraq was a reasonable action to take. The overwhelming majority of Democrats who voted in favor of military action where in office during the Clinton administration and were receiving reports then that indicated Iraq was building up WMD's again. For what its worth several hundred shells with sarin and mustard gas were found in Iraq after the war but thats the tip of the needle compared to what was expected to be found there.
After 9-11 Iraq was known to be looking for ways to make terrorist style attacks on US interests. Russias anti war pres Vladimer Putin has said he personally passed information Russian intellegence agencies had about this to Washington which backed up reports US and other agencies had, we're talkin multiple sources here. Why would he lie? He was dead set against the war.
Agents of the Iraq government were known to have had contacts with Al Queda members including Bin Laden. After the war even with full access to the country the best the 9-11 commision could do was say the meetings didn't apear to result in a colabrative relationship. Before the war who could possibly say what was going on?
So you have a country with WMD capabilities at least that is known to be looking at ways to make terrorist style attacks on US interests. They had contacts with the terrorist group that had just hit the US, They had no issue with publically supporting Palestenian terrorists and had fired on UN sanctioned peace keeping forces in the no fly zone numerous times. I would say that was a threat.
Now where Bush loses me on this is when he said knowing what he knows now he would do it all over again. Knowing what we know now we should have invaded the United Nations and threw out all the crooks so the oil for gas program would have actually had it's intended effect
I'm not going deep into this again as it's been over and over again. but the democrats and republicans, and the people of this country were fed out and out lies by the Bush administration, there are documents that back this up. why would Putin want to see the US in a dead-end virtually unwinnable war??? that answers that. the 9/11 comission did say Bin Laden contacted Hussein and Hussein wanted nothing to do with him, for numerous reasons. and this contact came BEFORE 9/11, not after it.

 

[reefraff]

Lets see, high ranking Al Queda member hurt in Afghanistan AFTER 9-11 taken to Baghdad and treated but nah, no contacts between Al Queda and Iraq after 9-11.
Like I said, who was lying? Here are some quotes for you, see if you can guess who made these statements without scrolling down to the answers.
1. Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." -
2. "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." -
3. "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -
4. "Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -
5. "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -
So who said it?
1. Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
2. Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998
3. Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
4. Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
5. Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
So I guess bush is so much smarter than a Democrat he was able to fool these people who made the statements before he was even elected to office. I guess Algore was even fooled too, couldn't have been that he saw the same reports Bush did and thought Iraq was after WMD as well.
Fact is all these people saw the intellegence and reached the exact same conclusion Bush did.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I wish I had more time to have read through this whole thread, but it's all the same stuff anyways. Most Bush haters wanna blame EVERYTHING that happens in this country on him. Bush allowed someone to drive drunk tonight. It's ludicruse(sp). They wanna believe the war in Iraq is unjustified. But the real fact is that Bush pushed the U.N. to do a better job at enforcing the sanctions upon Iraq. these sanctions were placed on Iraq as a result of the war wich was started because of Saddams invasion of our friends in Kuwait. The war as far as i recall was never ended and we have held the right to go back there at anytime if the sanctions were not met. Saddam was making a mokery out of the U.N and in turn the U.S. and we had to draw a line. Was there talk of WMD? Yes, and Bush may have stated that Saddam had them. we did find evidence that they had the capabilty to produce them(how long does it take to "cook up a batch of anthrax"?) , had the ability to transport them(didnt he get caught with missles that had longer ranges than he was allowed?). If we allowed him to continue to make a mockery of us after Sept 11th, we would have lost credibilty with the world as a super power, we HAD to go back, Saddam forced us to. You cant threaten something and not back it up when you have too.
Most people want to feel as though they have been tricked because the war has taken so long now, and we are paying a price, a price I'm feeling right now as my nephew is currently in a medical facilty "cooling down" after his unit was struck by a roadside bomb with what is believed to be Iranian origin, and his buddies didnt make it through. He was wounded in the event. It's like this, did it make Saddam happy when the crashed into the towers???? You bet your a** it did! Did he support it? You better believe it, just like Iran is supporting the insurgents now. should we have kicked his a** for that? YEP! Do we need to clean it up? YEP, we better or else it'll be on their terms then. You cannot set dedlines on a war, otherwise thats a surrender, Democrats want a vote and the people want our guys and gals back home. So they will try to push Bush to sign a ridiculous bill. WHOS holding up funds then?
I personally have a couple contractors whom I enjoy the benefit of a "no competition bidding" relationship. Because I can do the job at hand and ensure them a no glich project, as well as they get what they're paying for. My bids are fair but not bottom dollar, it's not a new concept. I've also won jobs when being a higher bidder than others, Reputation.
Bush is getting blamed over here for killing Iraqis yet Iraqi's are blaming insurgents for killing Iraqis, how ridiculous is that?
Tim was right about each president getting trashed for whatever can be dreamed up about them . Everyone want to blame someone else these days. Noone wants to have any backbone anymore and stand up for what's right. As soon as things get tough, they tuck and run.
I'm an AMERICAN, and I'm Damn proud of it. My ancesteors have shed blood for me and my bloodline will continue to spill in order to protect it!

 

[b bauer]

Originally Posted by NigerBang
Get serious...Do you think that ppl who SIGN UP for military duty think that they are going to sit around drinking soda and watching TV?!?!?!
They know what the job entails...I have lost 2 friends in Iraq and had several more come home...The 2 I lost were doing what they loved...Defending peoples rights to talk trash about them....and the ones that have came home are counting the days until R&R are up so they can go back...Listen to anyone who has been there.....The people are glad we are there...The ones who dont want us there is the enemy..
of all the threads in this group I had to respond to this one.nigerbang you know about sw and have helped me just by your ans to other people , but you are wrong on this.I had 15 years military (Army) service my wife 20 years retired now army also.the majority of military do not believe in this war this is from the army times.the afgan war was and still a just war they attacked us none of my friends mind going there.people I know in the army are proud to serve to protect our country but do not like to be used for political ways.To all the people who say we are there because of wmd's then why are we not bombing north Korea?N korea has nukes and has threatened us,also there is Iran that calls for our destruction why are we not there?the only reason we are in Iraq is that they were weak at the time.the last decent pres was Reagan and I'm a reg Dem

 

[reefraff]

My son is in Iraq right now and according to him the people he is in contact with there are nearly all behind the war. His wife is a Bush hater and she says the same thing about those who were at the base they were stationed at before my son shipped out a few months ago.

 

[nvmycj]

Originally Posted by b bauer
...To all the people who say we are there because of wmd's then why are we not bombing north Korea?N korea has nukes and has threatened us....
Because the North Korean Commies haven't nuked anyone! Sadam used the chemical and biological weapons on the Kurds and his own peeps. The WMD's can and are hidden all over that sandbox. The underground bunkers are all over the area. Some have been exposed and destroyed,....while others haven't. It's not hard to hide them.
On a side note.....
It's just so hard for me to understand why others don't understand why the war is going on. We are not there for poop and giggles. No one is ever happy with war. War is ugly. People die. It's not fun at all. A presidents political agenda has been questioned, since president #1. Americans will always debate and argue and question the presidents agenda. Because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean that it's a wrong decision, and it sure doesn't give you the right to bad mouth anyone,....president or not. Again, he is protecting the same freedom that is allowing you to talk crap about him. Try talking crap about Sadam while in Iraq. Or trying saying anything about Milosevic, from my neck of the woods. Try appreciating the freedom you have, and imagine living without it.

 

[steagfs]

We were mislead into this war, obviously. Not by Bush, he couldn't mislead himself out of a wet paper bag. But by the real criminals.....the neo-conservatives and Karl Rove.
I come from a political family in Alabama were Karl Rove has had a very large presence for many years due to his involvement in tort reform here in the state. My grandfather dealt with the guy and from what I have heard, he is pure and unadulterated evil. He has personally put 3 people in federal prison simply because they disagreed with him on tort reform in Alabama (using dirty judges, prosecuters, and law enforcement agents.......which are a dime a dozen in this state). One of the convicted, is a very decent man who was convicted of something that people like Karl Rove do once every 30 seconds. The guy is 61 years old and will spend 8 years in federal prison.
Now, I read that President Bush commutes the sentence of a man who revealed the name of a CIA agent, putting her life in danger, just because her Husband would not lie for thier war. It makes me physically ill just thinking about the kind of people leading my beloved country. Bush (Karl Rove) that he, not the 12 jurors who studied the case for months, knew what this guy deserved. It is just beyond me how these people got as powerful as they are. Again, not Bush......he is just a figurehead.
I'm telling you guys, my family has dealt with these people personally. If you cross them, they are in bed with people that can and will absolutly ruin your life, just because they can.
Also, I am getting my grad degree in political science......it is common knowledge among presidential scholars that Clinton, w/out a certain chubby little brunette, would be regarded as a successful and well thought of president......the argument that Bush is great because clinton was terrible, is totally invalid.
So in closing, if you still are a Bush fan......there is a reason why 3/4 of Americans and 9/10 worldwide disagree with you.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by steagfs
...
...a man who revealed the name of a CIA agent, putting her life in danger, just because her Husband would not lie for thier war....
I suggest you either re-read the article or get new sources for your news. That is not what Libby was convicted of.
Clinton will go down in history as the President who emboldened terrorists by failing to respond to numerous attacks on Americans around the world.
For some entertaining reading, cross reference the donors to the Clinton Library to people Clinton pardoned.
A good portion of the world does hate us. A good portion of the world is also run by islamic extremists....

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by steagfs
Also, I am getting my grad degree in political science......it is common knowledge among presidential scholars that Clinton, w/out a certain chubby little brunette, would be regarded as a successful and well thought of president......the argument that Bush is great because clinton was terrible, is totally invalid.

I hear this quite a bit from the democrat side of the aisle. Can someone tell me what Clinton did that made him a great President. The guy did NOT make one single hard decision....Every Great president in history had hard decisions they had to make. JFK had the Bay of Pigs, Reagan had the cold war and how to deal with that.....what was Clinton's great decision? What did he do that made him great?