unions

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875174
Where I come from, you have to be man enough to negotiate your own raise....

I have never had an army standing behind me to step in, just in case I wimp out and don't get what I want. Maybe I'm old school though....

HMMMM??? Ill refrain from comment.
 

t316

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2875187
HMMMM??? Ill refrain from comment.
No, go ahead Veni. I can take it. I'm not in a combative mood tonight, rather a listening mode. So give me what you got.....
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875198
No, go ahead Veni. I can take it. I'm not in a combative mood tonight, rather a listening mode. So give me what you got.....

First off, i earn every dollar i make.I do not need anyone to negotiate anything for me it just so happens that i dont have to.I do not need anyone backing me up it just so happens that i do.If you insinuating im not a man because i belong to a union,i take that as an insult.Like i said ive worked both side Union and Non and i can tell you the non are mostly pansies."Its to cold...Its to hot......Its to hard...."whaaaaa .....whaaa. When a big job needs to get done and done right in my trade, builders call on Union Carpenters not a bunch of wood butchers from the backwoods.What do you do for a living anyway?Im curious now.
 

t316

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2875210
First off, i earn every dollar i make.I do not need anyone to negotiate anything for me it just so happens that i dont have to.I do not need anyone backing me up it just so happens that i do.If you insinuating im not a man because i belong to a union,i take that as an insult.Like i said ive worked both side Union and Non and i can tell you the non are mostly pansies."Its to cold...Its to hot......Its to hard...."whaaaaa .....whaaa. When a big job needs to get done and done right in my trade, builders call on Union Carpenters not a bunch of wood butchers from the backwoods.What do you do for a living anyway?Im curious now.
I'm a Carpenter. Own two small manufacturing co's doing woodworking. No, I don't negotiate my own raise anymore. No, I never said you were not a man because you belong to a union. What I said was, I never had an Army standing behing me. This goes true even before I owned my own company. As far as your description of the "pansies", I see it just the opposite. In my field, when someone wants something done, they avoid a large co. related to a union, and know that the job will be done right, quick, and with no lawsuits if I just call the local guy. Could be a difference in local, but I think there's more to it.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875228
I'm a Carpenter. Own two small manufacturing co's doing woodworking. No, I don't negotiate my own raise anymore. No, I never said you were not a man because you belong to a union. What I said was, I never had an Army standing behing me. This goes true even before I owned my own company. As far as your description of the "pansies", I see it just the opposite. In my field, when someone wants something done, they avoid a large co. related to a union, and know that the job will be done right, quick, and with no lawsuits if I just call the local guy. Could be a difference in local, but I think there's more to it.
I dont know what its like in North Carolina,but here when its 30 below outside and im up on the 80th floor of some skyscraper i dont see any non union guys working.When its 100 deg outside and im sheeting a deck or roof i dont see any non union guys working.When the job is to big ..when the job is to complicated....when it need to get done right .when needs to be done now .I always see Union Carpenters.
 

t316

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2875247
I dont know what its like in North Carolina,but here when its 30 below outside and im up on the 80th floor of some skyscraper i dont see any non union guys working.When its 100 deg outside and im sheeting a deck or roof i dont see any non union guys working.When the job is to big ..when the job is to complicated....when it need to get done right .when needs to be done now .I always see Union Carpenters.
Although we are in related fields of work, it seems we are worlds apart, because I can tell you that I have not been on top of any skyscrapers lately. Hats off to you bro...

Sounds like it's more of a territory/local issue, because here in NC, unions are not the norm. The only counter argument that I have is this....If you were the owner of a private co. that had the job of working on that 80th floor when it's 30 below, or if you were the owner of that co. that was sheeting that roof in 100 deg. temp, what would you make your employees do?
Personally, no, I don't put my employees into robot mode. But the whining and complaining that you are talking about is non-existant either. I ask no more of my employees than I am willing to do myself....No more, and no less. They know this. There is no shift. There is no safey net pay. And there is no Big Brother Bailout in case you all want to join together and complain.
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875275
Although we are in related fields of work, it seems we are worlds apart, because I can tell you that I have not been on top of any skyscrapers lately. Hats off to you bro...

Sounds like it's more of a territory/local issue, because here in NC, unions are not the norm. The only counter argument that I have is this...
Personally, no, I don't put my employees into robot mode. But the whining and complaining that you are talking about is non-existant either. I ask no more of my employees than I am willing to do myself....No more, and no less. They know this. There is no shift. There is no safey net pay. And there is no Big Brother Bailout in case you all want to join together and complain.
Maybe i took your previous comment wrong.Maybe We are all a little ticked off at the BIG 3.I just know that i work my rear end off.And to answer the question you asked ".If you were the owner of a private co. that had the job of working on that 80th floor when it's 30 below, or if you were the owner of that co. that was sheeting that roof in 100 deg. temp, what would you make your employees do? " I wouldn't ask my employees or my apprentices to do anything i wouldn't do myself.Ive been Lead Carpenter and Ive been Foreman,when its tough out or when things aren't easy i get my rear out there and try to lead by example. Safety First,I cant ask anyone to do something i would do myself...that's just me though.
 

t316

Active Member

Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2875302
Maybe i took your previous comment wrong.Maybe We are all a little ticked off at the BIG 3.I just know that i work my rear end off.And to answer the question you asked ".If you were the owner of a private co. that had the job of working on that 80th floor when it's 30 below, or if you were the owner of that co. that was sheeting that roof in 100 deg. temp, what would you make your employees do? " I wouldn't ask my employees or my apprentices to do anything i wouldn't do myself.Ive been Lead Carpenter and Ive been Foreman,when its tough out or when things aren't easy i get my rear out there and try to lead by example. Safety First,I cant ask anyone to do something i would do myself...that's just me though.
Veni.....you responded to the question from a "Lead Carpenter" and a "Foreman" perspective. And I am not questioning your work ethics, as you have made it clear as to what you would do.
But, the question was, if you
were the OWNER
of this co., what would you make "you" do. Assuming that you are not involved in a union and there is no one else to answer to?
 

veni vidi vici

Active Member

Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875318
Veni.....you responded to the question from a "Lead Carpenter" and a "Foreman" perspective. And I am not questioning your work ethics, as you have made it clear as to what you would do.
But, the question was, if you
were the OWNER
of this co., what would you make "you" do. Assuming that you are not involved in a union and there is no one else to answer to?
The answer would be yes,providing it was safe to do so.You aren't going to make money sitting on your rear in the tavern or at home and the job isn't going to finish itself.There is always a schedule to keep and ID rather be done before it expires for 2 reasons.#1 it makes you look good and shows your competence. #2 Simply ....usually results in more work.
 

t316

Active Member
Originally Posted by Veni Vidi Vici
http:///forum/post/2875333
The answer would be yes,providing it was safe to do so.You aren't going to make money sitting on your rear in the tavern or at home and the job isn't going to finish itself.There is always a schedule to keep and ID rather be done before it expires for 2 reasons.#1 it makes you look good and shows your competence. #2 Simply ....usually results in more work.
As stated earlier, I am not in a combative mood. I concede for tonight....

But I will note that your work ethic is commendable.
 

darthtang aw

Active Member
I can only go off of what I have seen.
First off unions if ran well and ran with both the company's future and the workers interest at heart I will support. Always have.
But what I have seen is usually the opposite. I worked in the metal finishing industry for years. The shops I worked in were owned by the same family. One (the father's) was union, the other (the son's) was not. At the fathers plant as a union member if you were plater or a racker that is ONLY what you did. If the other had nothing to do, they DID NOT assist the other out. One, they didn't have to, and two, it wasn't in there job description. So there were times I saw a lot of guys just standing around for an hour or so with nothing to do because they didn't have to. Now the benefit to this is your job is secure...only you can do that job. No one else can do it. But if you called in sick and another "plater" was not on hand to fill your role because they were ahead of schedule (which never happenned) you would have an entire production line shut down. You would have the racker come in, do 1 hour of work on that line and then shift over and help other rackers load up and increase their stand around time. From a company perspective this is a lot of down time and wasted money. However this union never had any laid off. The company also used a lot of temps for menial tasks (paying an agency 11 an hour for 7 an hour labor) because the temps could be freely shuffled. I also saw old timers receive raises for time in and not performance. I could out produce all of them yet all of our raises were the same. I moved on when the son openned his plant...a lot of us younger guys did, because we would carry a huge brunt of the production.....after the son's shop opened up the father sold his 5 years later as his profit margin was slowly dwindling due to union costs (pay and such) yet production never increased due to the lock step of who could do what or was able to be asked to do what.
Move on to the new plant. I excelled. Management saw my expertise, knowledge and potential. I learned and did everything I could. Overtime was offered to those that wanted it at any position, if not enough rackers took the overtime platers could fill the roles and get OT at their pay rate doing racking work to keep production going. Some of the guys from other [plants didn't like this as they came over from union shops and loved it...they saw their Time in the field as a right to higher pay instead of their performance. We all had some gripes early on on how some things were ran as well so union talks started. The owner sat down with each one of us, found out our complaints and changed things...not all but the one's that made sense, so union never made it in.
I eventually (in 3 years) went on to become management at this shop. I didn't have the most time in. I didn't have the most experience. But I knew everything and proved myself. I Always did R&D. I studied things and every trade show or seminar I signed up for to go. I even learned the waste water management side of things. I learned the laboratory/ chemistry of everything (incidentally a metal finishing shop is a terrorist's dream) I helped out the repair/maintenance crews to get an understanding of how things operated and could be repaired. When I was offerred the management position I was given just shy a 6 figure income (on High school diploma mind you) if you include all the benefits. I was making almost as much as the plant manager. But I was 2 steps under his position.i made more than his second/assisant manager. Why? I ran the night crew. If my guys stayed late or worked overtime, I stayed with them. If something broke down, I did not call/page the on call head of maintenance to come in a spend 5 minutes to fix something (giving him an automatic 4 ours pay and waking him up in the middle of the night). I fixed it myself. I did not need our wastewater management guys to do anything for me as I could do it as well. They didn't have to work any overtime to ensure my shift had proper waste handling because I could do it. In a union this would not have worked, In a union I would not have been given the position as I did not hold seniority. In a union the company could not have fully compensated myself to do all this as they would have to pay three people to do it....But since it was not union, I got the job and got paid very well.
At some point I will give my wifes experiences in the postal union, but this is enough for now.
Unions have their good points, I will say that, but unions can also cripple a company considerable and hold some more deserving back over those less than...
 

sharkbait9

Active Member
Veni Vidi Vici i could not say it better
. In fact im not going to even get involved in this since im a county goverment worker. More reason to hate me.
When its snowing and you have to be at work, im out in the **** cleaning the roads so you people can go to work and your kids can go to school. Or storms blows thru and limbs are down im out in the mix.
Im top tear and if the front end loader jobs are done i pick up a shovel or what ever other tool needs to be used.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Unions do much more harm than good any more.
I worked a union job once and it just backed up a lot of the horror stories I had heard.
Look what they did to the auto manufacturers, heavy industry etc.
 

lovethesea

Active Member
maaaaaany years ago they were good for employees as most plants/manufaturing was not safe and very low pay.
Now.......they are useless and expensive. AND when it boils down to it they do nothing for the protection of their members. When a company shuts down where is the union? "sorry, we tried"

 

ruaround

Active Member
Originally Posted by sharkbait9
http:///forum/post/2875389
Veni Vidi Vici i could not say it better
. In fact im not going to even get involved in this since im a county goverment worker. More reason to hate me.
When its snowing and you have to be at work, im out in the **** cleaning the roads so you people can go to work and your kids can go to school. Or storms blows thru and limbs are down im out in the mix.
Im top tear and if the front end loader jobs are done i pick up a shovel or what ever other tool needs to be used.
well if we didnt get to work your salary wouldnt get paid... your post seems a bit holier than thou...
 

jaymz

Member
Originally Posted by T316
http:///forum/post/2875174
Where I come from, you have to be man enough to negotiate your own raise....

I have never had an army standing behind me to step in, just in case I wimp out and don't get what I want. Maybe I'm old school though....

Im old school though, thats some lame garbage to sound tough. And no matter how man enough you are when trying to negotiate a raise it will still take the company about 1 second to say no. Because in a good economy or a bad one there is always some one beating down the door for your job. Except for very specialized jobs its more cost effective to hire someone and give a bit of training. Because with alot of companies if you leave because of not getting any sort of raise then they will hire the next guy for smaller salary. Meaning you did them a favor. And if you dont think this happens everyday you are as big of a fool as you sound.
 

rotarymagic

Active Member
Originally Posted by ruaround
http:///forum/post/2875459
well if we didnt get to work your salary wouldnt get paid... your post seems a bit holier than thou...
All hail the mighty snow shoveler... he contributes the most to society..

Another one of those situations of lament for not going to college and trying to "one up or show up" those that did.
 

rotarymagic

Active Member
My workers are getting by just fine without a union... they look so happy!




Posing for the company picnic. Look at all those smiles!
With unions, these guys would be out of work... that'd be sad...
 

reefforbrains

Active Member
I am anti-union with a fair degree of conviction.
I wont get into it with the masses as I am sure I would only further distance myself from the pack with my beliefs.
I can add this- Even with my previous statement, not ALL unions are horrible. Some DO good for both sides employer/employee.
 
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