Water boarding---for or against?

1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2509127
How exactly can they destroy us and our way of life? They lack the means to even fight a conventional war; how exactly can they hurt us? Seriously, our presence in Iraq/Afganistan takes the majority of their attention and means.
How many biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons going off in major US cities do you think it would take to destroy our way of life? Remember how paralysed we were for the week after 9-11?
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2509133
But what is the point of the means we use to combat our opponent is the type of stuff that makes us want to fight them? We're fighting terrorism, which is essentially dirty warfare, with dirty warfare (torturing). I'm not equating the two, but I think they're in the same category.
I feel like we're looking at what our opponents do as disgusting and wrong (not just b/c they're on the other team, because it's morally wrong) and reverting to a very 3rd grade schoolyard type of logic by which we decide we'll do the same in return, and it's ok b/c they did it first. If this is the case I really feel that we've lost our way.

First off, we've done it a grand total of 3 times.
Second, each time we gained crucial info that proved to be accurate
Third, to say water boarding is the same to using mentally handicapped women as remote controlled bombs, throwing tied prisoners off of rooftops, throwing tied prisoners, who have been soaked in gasoline, in fire pits, using families as suicide bombs, etc. just doesn't seem right to me.
I agree we've lost our way. The fact that members of the Intelligence community leaked this info says to me we're lost...
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2509151
Destroy is a strong word, but I think as far as bang-for-buck goes, this war is a major defeat for the United States.
Think of what we've accomplished:
We're not really safer, our world image has plummeted, we've destabilized the middle east, we got rid of saddam which is good... there may be other small victories, but i think the goal was security for america and the world, and if we're any safer, it's not by much.
Think of what it has cost:
American lives (and lives from every other country who has helped us) , civilian lives, what will be end up being trillions of dollars, a completely ununified American population.
I think their biggest victory is our wager of an inept war against them. Even if we end up stabilizing the region (which i think we should do), we've spent a lot and accomplished very little. Is it any more difficult to attack America now? I don't think so. Harder to use a plane as a bomb, for sure, but that's just because we're looking for that now.

We have not had a single attack on US soil since 9-11
The Middle East is more stable with Saddam gone.
America was polarized when the Clinton/Monica issue came to light, the impeachment, and the 2000 election.
I posted on another thread recently the numbers of Al Qaeda leadership being killed in Iraq. We are killing the snake, by removing it's head, piece by piece.
 
abethedog

abethedog

Member
1journeyman = my kind of guy
Take the filter off and call it what it is.
This is uncomfortable. And, that is unfortunate. Hitler seemed harmless enough in the mid-30's. He seemed far enough away.
Just imagine the type of information that doesn't see the light of day. CIA, Special Forces, Government black budget stuff.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I'm basically astounded by the degree of "rights" and consideration that we want to impart to criminals, terrorists, etc. Overall, at some point, we as a society will need to address the rights of good people who are victimized by the actions of evil people. To me, if anything, this will be the downfall of our society. It is pretty disgusting how law breakers, criminals, terrorists get so much consideration. While innocent people get victimized and little or no justice.
Wake up people and think about who's rights you defend. There are better causes out there.
 
abethedog

abethedog

Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2509476
I'm basically astounded by the degree of "rights" and consideration that we want to impart to criminals, terrorists, etc. Overall, at some point, we as a society will need to address the rights of good people who are victimized by the actions of evil people. To me, if anything, this will be the downfall of our society. It is pretty disgusting how law breakers, criminals, terrorists get so much consideration. While innocent people get victimized and little or no justice.
Wake up people and think about who's rights you defend. There are better causes out there.
Your theory makes too much sense and doesn't seem to cost anything. I would vote for you but you don't take a general stance that does't alienate anyone. I just want to believe that my children will always enjoy their soccer games, juice boxes and orange slices regardless of what happens in a foriegn country.
Beth wern't you afraid that those comments could possible offend the sensibilites of a dreamer? Besides, war is icky.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
We are who we are because our founding fathers had immense wisdom. So much wisdom that they were able to create a governing document based on moral values and inalienable individual human rights. Right or wrong this document applies to everyone in the United States, citizen, visitor, and even captives.
I'm a very conservative defender of our Constitution. Any changes in content or interpretation need to be given much thought because of the profound influence it has on our way of life.
I feel that the fastest way for us to lose our way of life is to bend the intents of our founding fathers and disregard the provisions given to all individuals in our Constitution.
Many, or even most of the posters here don't believe waterboarding is torture. I can deal with that, it's mostly a matter of opinion. But before you consider treating terrorists as they have treated captured U.S. citizens please also consider the long term consequences of incorporating their way of life into ours. When we incorporate the worst of their culture into ours don't we lose a lot? Don't we become more similar to the terrorists? Isn't that a win for the terrorists?
That's all I'm asking, for you all to consider what it means to lower ourselves to their levels. To consider what we lose when that happens. To consider why it is that we are the greatest nation there has ever been.
Guy
 
suzy

suzy

Member
We must be able to use any means to be able to fight these evil enemy combatant terrorists. They are not prisoners, they are enemy combatant terrorists so we can do what ever we want to to them, as long as there are no photos allowed. We have to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here.
How can we show them that we can be just as evil as they are if we don't torture them sufficiently? We don't have to be above that anymore.
Do unto others before they can do unto us.
I thought of another good one. We can hang them upside down for three days. The blood will pool in their brains, and they will tell us anything we want to be let down. We will get vital info (even if they have to make it up) that will save millions. We can hang them

[hr]
after the water boarding, and then turn a fan on them. We could easily lower their core temp to just above death if we keep throwing water on them. No bruising, they recover eventually.
 
suzy

suzy

Member
Really? I'm trying to fit in!
Seriously, you should come over to my house for lasagna! You can see my tanks and pond, I'd even let you pet my fish. (They will kiss your fingers!). Then after dinner, we could have a drink and discuss the old days, when we held our country to a higher standard, when we were the good guys....
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2509476
I'm basically astounded by the degree of "rights" and consideration that we want to impart to criminals, terrorists, etc. Overall, at some point, we as a society will need to address the rights of good people who are victimized by the actions of evil people. To me, if anything, this will be the downfall of our society. It is pretty disgusting how law breakers, criminals, terrorists get so much consideration. While innocent people get victimized and little or no justice.
Wake up people and think about who's rights you defend. There are better causes out there.
I too am amazed the degree a surprising number of people want to go to so the terrorists "rights" are respected. Even to the point these people come across like they are rooting against our own country. Any comparison of our actions vs theirs is asinine. We capture people who don't take prisoners, or at least those they do don't live very long and we put them in Gitmo. They are provided prayer rugs and they Quoran, fed culturally appropriate meals and kept under conditions that are usually much nicer than they have experienced in their whole life. Yet we are attacked for placing them in gitmo rather than bringing them here and allowing them to use our legal system against us. Here's an interesting fact. Many of those being held at Gitmo are only still there because their own country refuses to take them back.
 
salty blues

salty blues

Active Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509264
How many biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons going off in major US cities do you think it would take to destroy our way of life? Remember how paralysed we were for the week after 9-11?
Hey, no doubt! Just consider the effects that Katrina and Rita had on my neck of the woods. No power for many days, gasolene shortages and rationing, grocery shortages. Certainly not to forget the lives lost and property damage.
Now, can you even imagine the effects of a major bio or nuclear attack? People would be freaking out with panic, the likes of which we've never seen. This would certainly make 9-11 & Katrina seem like a walk in the park.
This country is in no way prepared for such a catastrophe. We need to keep any and all means available to fight extremism.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/2509520
We are who we are because our founding fathers had immense wisdom. So much wisdom that they were able to create a governing document based on moral values and inalienable individual human rights. Right or wrong this document applies to everyone in the United States, citizen, visitor, and even captives.
I'm a very conservative defender of our Constitution. Any changes in content or interpretation need to be given much thought because of the profound influence it has on our way of life.
I feel that the fastest way for us to lose our way of life is to bend the intents of our founding fathers and disregard the provisions given to all individuals in our Constitution.
Many, or even most of the posters here don't believe waterboarding is torture. I can deal with that, it's mostly a matter of opinion. But before you consider treating terrorists as they have treated captured U.S. citizens please also consider the long term consequences of incorporating their way of life into ours. When we incorporate the worst of their culture into ours don't we lose a lot? Don't we become more similar to the terrorists? Isn't that a win for the terrorists?
That's all I'm asking, for you all to consider what it means to lower ourselves to their levels. To consider what we lose when that happens. To consider why it is that we are the greatest nation there has ever been.
Guy
Again, a well thought out post.
As you know, I too and a strict Constructionalist. I believe we need to get back to a more Constitutionally based Government.
My argument is two fold: 1. is it torture? 2. Does the Constitution apply to foreign terrorists?
I'm trying to imagine the Revolutionary War. If George Washington captured a British top ranking General, who knew which US port the British fleet was fixing to bombard and kill 10s of 1000's of civilians, would he slap the guy around until he talked? Would he dunk him in the Potomac a few times? I'm not sure. I'd like to think so though.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
I understand the need to not be "like them". More than a need, but a deeply ingrained, much cherished desire, and, yes, even a responsibility. I'm not convinced that any of the founding fathers would have agreed that the terrorists that we have to deal with today should have their rights protected on a par with US citizens. I'm thinking that they would have realized the threat to us, and even the world, and would have made very good decisions accordingly.
Torture was not unheard of in 1776. Nor was anyone really saying or doing anything to stop it. War is war, and we would not be where we are today by protecting our enemies. Does that give any of us license to act like immoral and blood-thirsty barbarians. Absolutely not, never, ever.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Suzy
http:///forum/post/2509535
Really? I'm trying to fit in!
Seriously, you should come over to my house for lasagna! You can see my tanks and pond, I'd even let you pet my fish. (They will kiss your fingers!). Then after dinner, we could have a drink and discuss the old days, when we held our country to a higher standard, when we were the good guys....
lol, suddenly I'm afraid of converting Suzy to our political party.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
I think we should just let them all come over here and have at it. After they kill 5 or 10 million of us they will figure out we aren't such bad people and allow those willing to convert to Islam to live. Such a deal
 
suzy

suzy

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2509641
lol, suddenly I'm afraid of converting Suzy to our political party.

our party....
I do find it interesting when a website has a bias one way or the other. IMO, it really stifles conversation, both in off topic and in the general forums. Today, I perused a few topics. One was a long thread on catching damsels. The advice offered seemed odd to me when it is very common knowledge how to solve the issue. Another just starting has a guy asking about a very invasive alga. We'll see how that one develops...
But, I am not saying having a forum for a sounding board is bad. RDO is that way, and has few people go there for actual fish advice, even though they have quite an active group of advanced aquarists. This is a way for like minded people to communicate, bond and interact so that is good.
 
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