Yellow tang with poor color?

1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by SlyCoolman
http:///forum/post/2478004
...To clarify, the main thing I was trying to refute was the doomsday messages; ie, 1journeyman says "I hope it goes alright but I cannot see how it would". Secondly, I am not saying the tang wouldn't be best off in a bigger tank because 99% of fish would be, they come from the ocean after all. What I am trying to get across is that, the tang will be fine in that tank size IMO. I apologize for coming off as a "troll" as doing so was not in my priorities.

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2473883
Saltman, if you want help when you have a problem you need to give completely accurate answers.
When I said your fish seemed stressed you said you'd had it for 4 years. Then you changed to having it for a year.
I'm saying, more strongly than ever, your fish is showing signs of stress because you do not have it in the proper habitat. Now, you've added a fish that will grow more than twice the size of the already stressed Yellow Tang.
Why add a fish when you're not sure what's already wrong in the tank? Especially why add such a large fish that requires so much more space than you can provide?
You asked on a different thread about the Naso and were told it wouldn't go with your tank. Now you added it without QT first. If you didn't have ich in your tank there is a great chance you will now as Tangs are known to frequently carry it.
Good luck. I hope it works well, but I have no idea how it can...
SlyCoolMan, I have no problem discussing tanks. I do, however, expect to be quoted in context. My statement referred to the fact that the original poster has an obviously stressed Yellow Tang and has added a Naso Tang to the 4 foot tank.
On top of all that, he didn't QT the new Tang.
Now, do you think this will work?
On top of that, multiple quotes that you posted above actually backed up the fact that Yellow Tangs outgrow 4 foot tanks.... Not to mention a Naso.
 
teresaq

teresaq

Active Member
Originally Posted by Saltman23
http:///forum/post/2477623
Spiderwoman, i think i would know if my fish were being picked on by others. You must not put words in my mouth!
I only have one thing to say---- you your self posted a video that shows a very large tang hiding in the rocks, and another fish picking on it and chasing it. It is at the end of your very own video. since these are the only pictures you have provided, this is the only pictures to base any advise on
 
m0nk

m0nk

Active Member
Originally Posted by SlyCoolman
http:///forum/post/2476717
According to most authors (Bob Fenner, Scott Michael, Nick Ireland, et al.) yellows can be kept in this size tank (Fenner says 50 gallons, Ireland & Michael 60), and I personally find 75 gallons to be a reasonable tank size. Demanding more is arrogant IMO and has very little scientific basis. For one, Zebrasoma are not particularly fast swimmers and two they do not grow very large, with 8'' being the maximum as listed on FishBase. Expecting fish to grow to the size of the giants in the wild is unreasonable, (genetics, hormones and self-regulation are all to "blame"; it is the reason we don't see four foot cigar sharks in aquaria) let alone blaming the owner for the fish not reaching that size. You can be a "tang police" if you want but don't try to shove it down other's throats unless you can come up with more than anecdotal or speculative evidence.
To the OP: there is such a thing as partially leucistic or "koi morph" yellow tangs, it is possible you have one of those. If the tang has been in your tank for a year and not shown any other "problems", TBH it's probably nothing to worry about.
If you choose to use the opinion of Bob Fenner in your argument, you might also wish to know that he believes tangs in the Naso family should be in tanks starting in the hundreds of gallons.
I personally don't want to get involved in a fight over who believes what, though. Just pointing out that while the yellow should be "fine", the Naso likely won't be over the long run.
 
slycoolman

slycoolman

Member
Yes I agree, Nasos need big tanks as they really are big fish. And just to clarify 1journeyman I was too lazy to go back and quote and I figure that misquote was close enough anyways.
There are many, many ways to go about keeping a reef tank and this is one of them. Just because someone doesn't do it exactly as you wish doesn't warrant the doomsday messages.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by SlyCoolman
http:///forum/post/2478827
Yes I agree, Nasos need big tanks as they really are big fish. And just to clarify 1journeyman I was too lazy to go back and quote and I figure that misquote was close enough anyways.
There are many, many ways to go about keeping a reef tank and this is one of them. Just because someone doesn't do it exactly as you wish doesn't warrant the doomsday messages.
You posted to make my statements look like we were only discussing a YT. We are not. We are discussing what appears (from the video) to be a distressed Tang in a 75 gallon tank and a Naso Tang being introduced without QT to the same tank. No one with any experience in this hobby would argue that is anything but a recipe for disaster.
There are many ways to keep a reef tank, but fewer ways to do so successfully. As I assume everyone who posts on these forums wishes to be successful obvious mistakes need to be pointed out.
 
slycoolman

slycoolman

Member
Mistakes in your opinion. I was posting mine, and giving sources to back it up. Nasos and yellows are different enough to be included easily in the same tank, so all that remains is accounting for the naso's growth. Not a recipe for disaster at all if the naso is still small and the upgrade plans are followed.
BTW I do not quarantine and do not plan to (except if I get into SPS). No problems yet. IMO it increases the stress level of the fish. It is simply another way of doing things; not wrong, not right, just different.
 
S

saltman23

Guest
1journeyman- i do not know how many times i have posted this but, I WILL BE UPGRADING TO A LARGER TANK SOON.ASLO I do not use QT because i buy all my fish from one LFS and this store is very reliable.
In regards to the video. my tang is no longer being "bullied" around. that video was takin a couple days after i bought the flame and they were still working things out!
i am sorry for the delay of pictures and will post a soon as i can.
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Saltman, Naso's need large, mature tanks. Upgrading soon means you'll be putting it into a tank that's not ready for it. (as do all Tangs...) Again, that doesn't solve the issues at hand.
At the moment you have 2 fish that are in an improper environment. It doesn't matter that you are planning on upgrading soon.
Your LFS may be great. That still doesn't protect your tank from dieases and parasites unless your LFS practices proper QT procedures for at least 4 weeks on every fish they get in (which I cannot imagine any fish store in the world can afford to do). I purchase fish from this site. I trust them to send me the best fish possible and they always have. I still QT...
QT is not just about disease and parasites, however. QT tanks also give a newly arrived fish time to catch it's breath, so to speak, before entering the competitive environment of our tanks. A QT tank allows a fish to get used to captivity, get used to being fed, allows a the aquarist time to get it to eat (and target feed) if it is being picky, examine it for injuries, etc.
I find it amusing that experts like Fenner and Michael's are quoted when the "bare minimum tank size" is convenient for one fish, but ignored for the other. I also find it sad that their consistent mantra to always QT new arrivals is being ignored.
Saltman, it's your tank. I don't get anything out of convincing you to do things a certain way. Nor do any of the other hobbyists around here who have been doing this for years. You asked a question and we're trying to help.
We can argue all day long; That's not going to change the fact that the vast majority of experienced aquarists agree Tangs need large, mature tanks. While I respect Slycoolman's opinion, if you read his earlier posts you'll see, like you. he's fairly new to the hobby himself. He himself quoted "experts" agreeing that you are making mistakes that need to be corrected.
I meant it when I said "Good Lcuk". I really do hope it works for you. A quick search on the forums will show you countless posts where people have failed doing exactly what you are doing, however. That's why I wished you good luck.
I never want to see anyone's fish die, or anyone to have disease enter their display tanks.
I really do hope this works well for you and that you enjoy the hobby for years to come.
 
S

saltman23

Guest
we will all carry are opinions. i have had 0 prolems by not QTing so why fix something that not broken? when i set up my upgrade my tank will not be completely new because i will be using live rock that is about 6 years old along with 1-2 year old sand and older water! not to mention the filter media that will be already "used"
I appreciate the good luck but i did not appreciate the "but i dont know how it can"
 
crimzy

crimzy

Active Member
Just to jump in for a second... I am a bit confused. You posted originally that your yellow tang has some discoloration and wondered why. Many people have suggested that this is due to the size of the tank yet you absolutely dismiss this possiblity, along with the possiblity that a disease was introduced to the tank by not QT'ing. You claim that everything in your tank is perfect.
So my question is this... why are you so opposed to the possibility that this fish is stressed based on its habitat? Especially considering that you mentioned that the tang has had this discoloration the entire time that you've had it. While an average yellow may be ok in a 75 for a while, have you considered that you may have a more sensitive individual? This is not an exact science here. and some specimens can be more delicate to their conditions.
And as an aside, nasos are some of my favorite fish. Please do what you can to fatten up that emaciated one. I'm surprised that someone would buy a naso like that if they've had a chance to observe it first in the LFS.
Good luck with your upgrade and please, regardless of what happens, get that naso out of that tank before too long. He may be ok now but this is far from an ideal habitat for him.
 
S

saltman23

Guest
if you can tell from the vid the yellow tangs color has gotten better after i added a new food to its diet.
for the naso, we just bought him about 2 days ago. he just started eating so i will be getting fatter :]
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2479444
Again in this video you can see the angel bully the tang when it gets to close to where its not supposed to be .

Yes you can. That Angel is clearly the boss of the tank.
Also, the Tang pacing the glass back and forth is not normal or healthy behavior. It should be grazing while it swims back and forth. "Pacing" the tank is another sign of stress.
Saltman, again, I'm not in any way attacking you, I'm just pointing out what I've observed in the hobby regarding Tangs over the years.
That Tang appears to be stressed to me.
 
slycoolman

slycoolman

Member
We can argue all day long; That's not going to change the fact that the vast majority of experienced aquarists agree Tangs need large, mature tanks. While I respect Slycoolman's opinion, if you read his earlier posts you'll see, like you. he's fairly new to the hobby himself. He himself quoted "experts" agreeing that you are making mistakes that need to be corrected.
Excuse me, but from where do you draw this conclusion? I may not be a "seasoned expert" at six years of experience (FW for six years, SW for four of those), but I do consider myself well read on the topic. I am defending Saltman23 because he has done nothing wrong, and the "experts" or "majority" is trying to tell him that he is. Furthermore, since you have made a generalization on me I feel right to make one on you: that Bob Fenner and Scott Michael are far more experienced than the both of us, and they appear to agree with me, not you.
Indeed, on another thread, M0nk made an E-mail regarding tangs to Fenner, and this was the gist of the response according to m0nk:
So more to the general issue; I emailed Bob Fenner because there were some interesting notations to the tank size issue on the website he posts on usually. The Acanthurus, Ctenochaetus, and Zebrasoma families all note a guideline size starting at 50 gallons so I asked if this was outdated and if there was anything more current he could offer to help the debate. He believes that some of the Acanthurus, and most of the Ctenochaetus and Zebrasoma will do fine in a 50g volume tank that is not crowded, has good maintenance, and adequate nutrition. However many Acanthurus tangs will grow to be rather large and cannot be kept in this environment. Conversely, anything in the Naso and Prionurus families needs hundreds of gallons (which in my mind translates to at least 200+ gallons). Paracanthurus (blue hippo) should be in something 75g or larger. Also, I did ask for any data that could relate to the issue and he noted that most data on the subject are from much, much larger systems (I'm assuming he meant public aquariums where reef tanks are in the thousands of gallons range) and that most of the information that points to the 6' "rule" is more or less anecdotal.
Again, there is more than one way to do things. 1journeyman you seem to insist that your way is the only way it can possibly work. This is not correct. Take Japan, for instance. One method of keeping aggressive fish over there is to cram them in, and keep them alive with good maintenance. I personally do not agree with this method, but one cannot deny that their fish are almost always as healthy as ours (in North America). Obviously it works for them. You can continue to offer the doomsday messages instead of help, but TBH as a mod I would expect more than that from you.
Finally, I will state what I think, even though apparently it has no meaning since I'm a "noob":
Yellow tangs can be kept in 75 gallons.
Nasos need much larger tanks. Fenner says 200+, but I think a 180 long/shallow (height shallow) could suffice.
Like 99% of other fish, bigger is better.
P.S.
What I saw in that video was a YT and naso swimming out in the open, looking fine. And since when is "pacing" a sign of stress? Can I chalk that up to the same side as idea that "a fish is sick because it's not outgrowing the tank" comes from?
 
1journeyman

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Saltman23
http:///forum/post/2479374
we will all carry are opinions. i have had 0 prolems by not QTing so why fix something that not broken? ...
Take a look in the disease section of this forum. See how many people talk about treating disease in a reef tank.
It only takes once. Not QTing fish is like playing Russian Roulette. You can have success 20 times in a row, then pull the trigger and bang...
You will find a lot of hobbyists who don't QT. You will find virtually NO hobbyist who cares about their tanks, that own a nice reef tank, that get ich, and who finally successfully treats the fish that survive.
Learn from their mistakes Saltman.
Let's assume the worst case scenario. Let's assume the Tang you just introduced the Ich parasite in it's gills (a very fair possiblility, and one your LFS will have no way of knowing). Now, those parasites are going to release from the Tang and continue with their life cycle. Your display is now infested. A couple of weeks from now you look at the tank and see a couple of fish flashing against the rocks and see the white granules indicitive of Ich. What are you going to do?
There is NO reef safe medication that is 100% effective. (Again, according to Fenner). You can't use copper or hypo your tank as long as inverts are present. Curing a QT tank takes a month or so... What are you going to do?
 
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