getting very angry with my lfs
- Thread starter sparty059
- Start date
posiden
Active Member
Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3294601
I don't think I can do this because of the canopy that I have. It has a small opening that will not allow me to put a pipe through... also, I have a cover over the overflow that won't let me cover it if I put a pipe in over the top. But this shouldn't be a bad thing if I can't do this... right? So you think I should just stick with the 3/4" bulkhead?... I was kind of thinking if I use the 1 1/2" then it'll be cutting the glass very close to the top you know? You think I shouldn't have any issue with overflow or any problems if I keep the 3/4" bulk?
Making an acess hole in your canopy is pretty easy. Its wood right? Also it wont be a bad thing if you dont run the cover to the OF. Your the first for me that wants to run a cover on the OF. I'm sure you just want to cause its there. It will help to keep a courious pet of yours from going in there. For sure.
Its not a bad thing if you don't plumb it like I suggested. A Herbie gives a piece of sucrity that a Durso or a Stockman stand pipe can't. By running a full siphon that is just chocked down enough to not handle the full load, you are forcing that last little bit (about 10%) through the other drain. IF anything should make the main drain (the siphon) run more slowly or to plug up. The other drain will just drain more. It will also make noise alearting you of a problem with your drain. If a single drain gets logged in any way, the pump wont stop and you tank will slowly fill beyond its capicity unless your pump runs out of water first. Which will then burn up your retun pump.
Yes you need more lighting. That's not gonna cut it. Your gonna need to get retro kits if you want to keep the canopy. No sense in paying for a nice light fixture if you can't see it.
http:///forum/post/3294601
I don't think I can do this because of the canopy that I have. It has a small opening that will not allow me to put a pipe through... also, I have a cover over the overflow that won't let me cover it if I put a pipe in over the top. But this shouldn't be a bad thing if I can't do this... right? So you think I should just stick with the 3/4" bulkhead?... I was kind of thinking if I use the 1 1/2" then it'll be cutting the glass very close to the top you know? You think I shouldn't have any issue with overflow or any problems if I keep the 3/4" bulk?
Making an acess hole in your canopy is pretty easy. Its wood right? Also it wont be a bad thing if you dont run the cover to the OF. Your the first for me that wants to run a cover on the OF. I'm sure you just want to cause its there. It will help to keep a courious pet of yours from going in there. For sure.
Its not a bad thing if you don't plumb it like I suggested. A Herbie gives a piece of sucrity that a Durso or a Stockman stand pipe can't. By running a full siphon that is just chocked down enough to not handle the full load, you are forcing that last little bit (about 10%) through the other drain. IF anything should make the main drain (the siphon) run more slowly or to plug up. The other drain will just drain more. It will also make noise alearting you of a problem with your drain. If a single drain gets logged in any way, the pump wont stop and you tank will slowly fill beyond its capicity unless your pump runs out of water first. Which will then burn up your retun pump.
Yes you need more lighting. That's not gonna cut it. Your gonna need to get retro kits if you want to keep the canopy. No sense in paying for a nice light fixture if you can't see it.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3294891
You have to watch the back flow in any case. The refuge tank is just gravity feed the sump tank. In a power outage or a pump failer the refuge is not going to hold any more water then it does while its running. We are already filling it too its max, that's why its draining into the sump tank. Its the sump tank that will hold all back flow. Its the lowest point.
IMO a check vavle is usless. Life grows inside of them and when you need it most they fail. You also must find one without any metal parts. Placing the returns as high as possile is the best thing you can do for the return line. Just far enough under water so they don't pull in air.
Getting rid of the small holes that may or may not be drilled in the drain, will help to stop the flow more soon. But it only needs to be raised if the OF makes any noise. Making the drain pipe taller will not help a back flow issue. Just the cascading water fall sound for it to get to the drain pipe, if it makes one.
Check valves are not useless if you clean them once in a while. And yes he would have to get the ones with the non metalic parts. They are not to be relied on 100% at all...it's more a less for redundancy just in case. The most important thin is going to be his return.
The stand pipe in the overflow will make a difference if it it raised because there will be water inside of the overflow box so the higher the pipe the less of that water will backfeed through the drain.
The sump...yes the water will flow to it's lowest point. But it's like beaslbob mentioned, if too much water entered into the fuge at one time with the 3/4" drains and it were to choke them off then the water in the fuge could rise quickly and being that the water level in that tank will be pretty high that could be cutting it close. Do I see a problem happening?...probably but, but it's something to consider.
http:///forum/post/3294891
You have to watch the back flow in any case. The refuge tank is just gravity feed the sump tank. In a power outage or a pump failer the refuge is not going to hold any more water then it does while its running. We are already filling it too its max, that's why its draining into the sump tank. Its the sump tank that will hold all back flow. Its the lowest point.
IMO a check vavle is usless. Life grows inside of them and when you need it most they fail. You also must find one without any metal parts. Placing the returns as high as possile is the best thing you can do for the return line. Just far enough under water so they don't pull in air.
Getting rid of the small holes that may or may not be drilled in the drain, will help to stop the flow more soon. But it only needs to be raised if the OF makes any noise. Making the drain pipe taller will not help a back flow issue. Just the cascading water fall sound for it to get to the drain pipe, if it makes one.
Check valves are not useless if you clean them once in a while. And yes he would have to get the ones with the non metalic parts. They are not to be relied on 100% at all...it's more a less for redundancy just in case. The most important thin is going to be his return.
The stand pipe in the overflow will make a difference if it it raised because there will be water inside of the overflow box so the higher the pipe the less of that water will backfeed through the drain.
The sump...yes the water will flow to it's lowest point. But it's like beaslbob mentioned, if too much water entered into the fuge at one time with the 3/4" drains and it were to choke them off then the water in the fuge could rise quickly and being that the water level in that tank will be pretty high that could be cutting it close. Do I see a problem happening?...probably but, but it's something to consider.
sparty059
Active Member
Everyone... these are the results!
Attachment 245193
And the final product!...........................
Attachment 245192
HOORAY!!!!!
Attachment 245193
And the final product!...........................
Attachment 245192
HOORAY!!!!!
posiden
Active Member
Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3294918
Check valves are not useless if you clean them once in a while. And yes he would have to get the ones with the non metalic parts. They are not to be relied on 100% at all...it's more a less for redundancy just in case. The most important thin is going to be his return.
The stand pipe in the overflow will make a difference if it it raised because there will be water inside of the overflow box so the higher the pipe the less of that water will backfeed through the drain.
The sump...yes the water will flow to it's lowest point. But it's like beaslbob mentioned, if too much water entered into the fuge at one time with the 3/4" drains and it were to choke them off then the water in the fuge could rise quickly and being that the water level in that tank will be pretty high that could be cutting it close. Do I see a problem happening?...probably but, but it's something to consider.
If you can't rely on them then they are a waste of money IMO. Why have them. To do extra maintence on?
The OF box is only going to have a water level the height of the drain pipe. It doesn't matter if its only 1" long. The water will fall to the bottom of the box then go into the pipe. The OF box can't back flow what the return pump doesn't feed it. The only extra flow the OF box will see is the level in the DT changing due to resistance of the teeth. No matter how the drain system is setup, it going to have to deal with this. Because there isn't a smooth weir for the water to flow across into the OF box, more resistance caused by the teeth will mak the water level higher in the DT then a smooth OF.
How is the refug tank going to see a rush of water when the return pump fails or the power goes out? The return pump is pumping from the sump tank and that's where the back flow rush will be see cause its going to be a full siphon through the retun line. The refug tank wont see this rush of water.
http:///forum/post/3294918
Check valves are not useless if you clean them once in a while. And yes he would have to get the ones with the non metalic parts. They are not to be relied on 100% at all...it's more a less for redundancy just in case. The most important thin is going to be his return.
The stand pipe in the overflow will make a difference if it it raised because there will be water inside of the overflow box so the higher the pipe the less of that water will backfeed through the drain.
The sump...yes the water will flow to it's lowest point. But it's like beaslbob mentioned, if too much water entered into the fuge at one time with the 3/4" drains and it were to choke them off then the water in the fuge could rise quickly and being that the water level in that tank will be pretty high that could be cutting it close. Do I see a problem happening?...probably but, but it's something to consider.
If you can't rely on them then they are a waste of money IMO. Why have them. To do extra maintence on?
The OF box is only going to have a water level the height of the drain pipe. It doesn't matter if its only 1" long. The water will fall to the bottom of the box then go into the pipe. The OF box can't back flow what the return pump doesn't feed it. The only extra flow the OF box will see is the level in the DT changing due to resistance of the teeth. No matter how the drain system is setup, it going to have to deal with this. Because there isn't a smooth weir for the water to flow across into the OF box, more resistance caused by the teeth will mak the water level higher in the DT then a smooth OF.
How is the refug tank going to see a rush of water when the return pump fails or the power goes out? The return pump is pumping from the sump tank and that's where the back flow rush will be see cause its going to be a full siphon through the retun line. The refug tank wont see this rush of water.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3294974
If you can't rely on them then they are a waste of money IMO. Why have them. To do extra maintence on?
The OF box is only going to have a water level the height of the drain pipe. It doesn't matter if its only 1" long. The water will fall to the bottom of the box then go into the pipe. The OF box can't back flow what the return pump doesn't feed it. The only extra flow the OF box will see is the level in the DT changing due to resistance of the teeth. No matter how the drain system is setup, it going to have to deal with this. Because there isn't a smooth weir for the water to flow across into the OF box, more resistance caused by the teeth will mak the water level higher in the DT then a smooth OF.
How is the refug tank going to see a rush of water when the return pump fails or the power goes out? The return pump is pumping from the sump tank and that's where the back flow rush will be see cause its going to be a full siphon through the retun line. The refug tank wont see this rush of water.
It takes a few mere minutes to clean out a check valve once every couple of months. If kept clean then yes they can be a reliable back up. I never said to be used as the only solution to prevent backflow. Perhaps he goes to set up his new rock scape here in the near future and accidentily bumps his loc-line fitting lower into the tank without realizing it. Then at least there would be something there to fall back on just in case.
Yes, the overflow box is only going to have as much water as the drain is high...unless you have a stand pipe with holes in it like he does which needs to be replaced. And unless you like the sound of a waterfall then height is a choice up to which the owner of the tank preferes.
And the more that I think about it...you're right! The fuge shouldn't see an excess rush of water when the return goes out. I don't know wth I was thinking. I've never put a 2 tank sump system together so I guess I was just over thinking things a bit. Anyhow...the way I see it, he/we decided not to go that route anyway. So it should still work out. It wasn't even about the backflow...it was about running all of the drain water through the fuge.
http:///forum/post/3294974
If you can't rely on them then they are a waste of money IMO. Why have them. To do extra maintence on?
The OF box is only going to have a water level the height of the drain pipe. It doesn't matter if its only 1" long. The water will fall to the bottom of the box then go into the pipe. The OF box can't back flow what the return pump doesn't feed it. The only extra flow the OF box will see is the level in the DT changing due to resistance of the teeth. No matter how the drain system is setup, it going to have to deal with this. Because there isn't a smooth weir for the water to flow across into the OF box, more resistance caused by the teeth will mak the water level higher in the DT then a smooth OF.
How is the refug tank going to see a rush of water when the return pump fails or the power goes out? The return pump is pumping from the sump tank and that's where the back flow rush will be see cause its going to be a full siphon through the retun line. The refug tank wont see this rush of water.
It takes a few mere minutes to clean out a check valve once every couple of months. If kept clean then yes they can be a reliable back up. I never said to be used as the only solution to prevent backflow. Perhaps he goes to set up his new rock scape here in the near future and accidentily bumps his loc-line fitting lower into the tank without realizing it. Then at least there would be something there to fall back on just in case.
Yes, the overflow box is only going to have as much water as the drain is high...unless you have a stand pipe with holes in it like he does which needs to be replaced. And unless you like the sound of a waterfall then height is a choice up to which the owner of the tank preferes.
And the more that I think about it...you're right! The fuge shouldn't see an excess rush of water when the return goes out. I don't know wth I was thinking. I've never put a 2 tank sump system together so I guess I was just over thinking things a bit. Anyhow...the way I see it, he/we decided not to go that route anyway. So it should still work out. It wasn't even about the backflow...it was about running all of the drain water through the fuge.
posiden
Active Member
Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3294988
It takes a few mere minutes to clean out a check valve once every couple of months. If kept clean then yes they can be a reliable back up. I never said to be used as the only solution to prevent backflow. Perhaps he goes to set up his new rock scape here in the near future and accidentily bumps his loc-line fitting lower into the tank without realizing it. Then at least there would be something there to fall back on just in case.
Yes, the overflow box is only going to have as much water as the drain is high...unless you have a stand pipe with holes in it like he does which needs to be replaced. And unless you like the sound of a waterfall then height is a choice up to which the owner of the tank preferes.
And the more that I think about it...you're right! The fuge shouldn't see an excess rush of water when the return goes out. I don't know wth I was thinking. I've never put a 2 tank sump system together so I guess I was just over thinking things a bit. Anyhow...the way I see it, he/we decided not to go that route anyway. So it should still work out. It wasn't even about the backflow...it was about running all of the drain water through the fuge.
Sure there are a million what if's. Which is why I like to have as few of componets as possible.
Right. I mentioned the water fall effect eairler when I brought up the height. I also mentioned about the holes.
So, we agree about not getting a back rush in the refug tank. So, now I ask. How is running all the water through the refug tank first, any different then a single tank sump/refug? You've taken all the precaution you can by adding in the eggcrate material. 650ish GPH in a single tank filter is the same as 650ish GPH in a dual tank filter. By using 2 3/4" bulkheads to drain the refug tank into the sump tank. He still has the same cross section of diameter as the single 1" drain he's feeding them with.
In the end it doesn't matter to me how this gets done. Its not my tank or my money. I would just like him to have a different view since he has stated he doesn't know much about this. I would also like him to have a clear understanding of what it is he's doing. Also, should his 1" drain be on the loud side. He now knows about the Herbie style drain. Which he can easily do or modify to "SHOULD" he have a problem.
http:///forum/post/3294988
It takes a few mere minutes to clean out a check valve once every couple of months. If kept clean then yes they can be a reliable back up. I never said to be used as the only solution to prevent backflow. Perhaps he goes to set up his new rock scape here in the near future and accidentily bumps his loc-line fitting lower into the tank without realizing it. Then at least there would be something there to fall back on just in case.
Yes, the overflow box is only going to have as much water as the drain is high...unless you have a stand pipe with holes in it like he does which needs to be replaced. And unless you like the sound of a waterfall then height is a choice up to which the owner of the tank preferes.
And the more that I think about it...you're right! The fuge shouldn't see an excess rush of water when the return goes out. I don't know wth I was thinking. I've never put a 2 tank sump system together so I guess I was just over thinking things a bit. Anyhow...the way I see it, he/we decided not to go that route anyway. So it should still work out. It wasn't even about the backflow...it was about running all of the drain water through the fuge.
Sure there are a million what if's. Which is why I like to have as few of componets as possible.
Right. I mentioned the water fall effect eairler when I brought up the height. I also mentioned about the holes.
So, we agree about not getting a back rush in the refug tank. So, now I ask. How is running all the water through the refug tank first, any different then a single tank sump/refug? You've taken all the precaution you can by adding in the eggcrate material. 650ish GPH in a single tank filter is the same as 650ish GPH in a dual tank filter. By using 2 3/4" bulkheads to drain the refug tank into the sump tank. He still has the same cross section of diameter as the single 1" drain he's feeding them with.
In the end it doesn't matter to me how this gets done. Its not my tank or my money. I would just like him to have a different view since he has stated he doesn't know much about this. I would also like him to have a clear understanding of what it is he's doing. Also, should his 1" drain be on the loud side. He now knows about the Herbie style drain. Which he can easily do or modify to "SHOULD" he have a problem.
sparty059
Active Member
Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3294981
Spraty,
Please give me the dimensions of your OF box and the dimensions of your teeth. I would also like to know how many teeth. (saves me the math)
The over flow is 29.5" tall x 7" in the back 4" diagional x about 5.25" in the front... picture provided...
Attachment 245195Attachment 245196
8 teeth on each side 4 in the front.
http:///forum/post/3294981
Spraty,
Please give me the dimensions of your OF box and the dimensions of your teeth. I would also like to know how many teeth. (saves me the math)
The over flow is 29.5" tall x 7" in the back 4" diagional x about 5.25" in the front... picture provided...
Attachment 245195Attachment 245196
8 teeth on each side 4 in the front.
2quills
Well-Known Member
Running 650gph or so through the sump would mean that the dirty water isn't going to have very much dwell time in the fuge. Which is fine if all you're doing is breeding pods or want to have some LR in there for more bacteria. But IMO, any macro algae that you put in there isn't going to be able to keep up with that and your fuge will be much less effective in the removal of nitrates arena. This subject has been talked about more times than I care to remember and I believe the consensus is that a longer dwell time in the fuge is prefered. And if your sump is built like mine with the skimmer chamber on one side of the return and fuge on the other...then there is a difference. It's a completely different design than going through fuge then skimmer and onto return.
Sparty, hasn't really taken the time to do much of his own research to come up with his own plan for his own system. Therefore anybody elses input is simply going to be a matter of personal opinion. Personally I would and have taken alot of time and put forth alot of effort into researching how I am building my own system. I've taken advice from many sources and came up what I believe would be best for my tank. I think that's what anyone should do...and that is what I have recommend that he do a couple of times already...not just in this thread. But he seems hell bent to be in a hurry...so it is what it is.
Sparty, hasn't really taken the time to do much of his own research to come up with his own plan for his own system. Therefore anybody elses input is simply going to be a matter of personal opinion. Personally I would and have taken alot of time and put forth alot of effort into researching how I am building my own system. I've taken advice from many sources and came up what I believe would be best for my tank. I think that's what anyone should do...and that is what I have recommend that he do a couple of times already...not just in this thread. But he seems hell bent to be in a hurry...so it is what it is.
sparty059
Active Member
Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3294975
This is the kind of fitting/adapter that I'm talking about to connect your pipe...you did get the thread x thread bulkheads right?
Yep, I bought the thread x thread. I didn't mean to say adapter in the last message before... I meant to say bulkhead... So what are those adapters called? Tomorrow I'm going to be running to home depot to pick up all the piping for everything... my goal is to have everything piped and ready to go. I want to only need to get the baffles from my friend and I'm still waiting to see if I can find a place that has a semi good deal on the Eheim 1262 pump.
http:///forum/post/3294975
This is the kind of fitting/adapter that I'm talking about to connect your pipe...you did get the thread x thread bulkheads right?
Yep, I bought the thread x thread. I didn't mean to say adapter in the last message before... I meant to say bulkhead... So what are those adapters called? Tomorrow I'm going to be running to home depot to pick up all the piping for everything... my goal is to have everything piped and ready to go. I want to only need to get the baffles from my friend and I'm still waiting to see if I can find a place that has a semi good deal on the Eheim 1262 pump.
2quills
Well-Known Member
It's just a 3/4' Slip x MPT fitting...you shouldn't have any problem finding it at home depot. You could dry fit it together if you want but it will probably be easier to have the tanks outside of the stand for when you silicone the baffles in. More working room that way.