getting very angry with my lfs

[sparty059]

Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3295009
Sparty, hasn't really taken the time to do much of his own research to come up with his own plan for his own system. Therefore anybody elses input is simply going to be a matter of personal opinion. Personally I would and have taken alot of time and put forth alot of effort into researching how I am building my own system. I've taken advice from many sources and came up what I believe would be best for my tank. I think that's what anyone should do...and that is what I have recommend that he do a couple of times already...not just in this thread. But he seems hell bent to be in a hurry...so it is what it is.
For everyones information... as I have said before coming into this forum, I knew nothing about anything regarding fish tanks. I bought this because I thought it would be a fun hobby to get into and it is infact fun at this point. Putting together and doing this stuff physically on my own is plenty self gratification. With that being said, as I have posted and recieved responses I have started to understand lingo and meanings to words in the fish world. I do take everyones opinion, thought, and suggestion into consideration and I do decide which I feel is the best option for my tank. It doesn't have to be done in a hurry 2Quills, however I am egar to see fish in my tank... I find it fun and ammusing to watch and admire. I noticed you and Posiden have been getting into a bit of a thread war regarding what you both think is the better option. I read both your posts about 20 times to completely understand what you guys are talking about... I then go to my tank and visualize how it would work in each instance. I am aware this is a long process and it won't come together in a day... but at the same time... I want to get it done in less than 3 months down the line. Doesn't mean fish have to be in it... just have water running through the tank. I also have been asking questions regarding the tank function well down the road but that's for my personal understanding of the process... if I understand how it works down the line it will make it easier to understand in my head.
Again, I appreciate everyones suggestions and I look it over and review my tank to see which is the best option. Another example would be I've had 3 suggestions for my sump... #1 tank my cabinet apart, #2 just put a tank in there that will fit 24 gallon, or #3 put two small tanks in there and link them together... I reviewed everything and decided on option 3. I welcome all suggestions as I don't know how to do this on my own yet.

 

[2quills]

Agreed, Sparty. It should be an enjoyable experience. Though it will test you at times to lol. Not trying to get into any kind of thread war...just sharing a difference in opinion is all. There are countless ways to set up a saltwater tank and learning all you can in order to decide what is best for you is the best thing that you can do. One thing you will find is that many people have their own personal prefferences...and so will you. I look forward to seeing this tank come together for you and I'm just trying to help in anyway that I can.

 

[meowzer]

LOL...get use to it Sparty.....there are a lot of hobbyists that do things differently....and if it works for them...well they recommend it...I only recommend soemthing I have actually used....BUT you are right.....read, listen, review...and make YOUR own decisions.....this is afterall YOUR tank....we just want to see you succeed

 

[sparty059]

I welcome all suggestions I personally feel I am on the home stretch at this point... there is so little I have left to do. I still need to understand what you and Posiden were saying about overflow. That is one of the many parts I am still VERY confused and most concerned about. What exactly prevents from overflow? So if I have 125 gallons of water in there... it will go into the O/F it will drain into the pipe in the O/F drain down and fill up in the refuge then into the sump, then back into the aquarium. Is this right? Or am I adding water in the aqarium, the refuge, AND the sump?

 

[posiden]

Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3292736
2Quills,
Why can't I private message you? I don't know if I should enter a message here or on PM.
Regardless, my question to you was going to be what dimensions do you need to help me out?
I have:
125 Gallon - 5 1/2' (W) x 1 1/2' (D) x 2 1/2' (H)
Ok, what are the diemensions of your tank?
This is off the first page and unless I'm doing something wrong, you have a total capicity of 154 gallons. Are these the inside diemensions of the tank?

 

[sparty059]

Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3295055
Ok, what are the diemensions of your tank?
This is off the first page and unless I'm doing something wrong, you have a total capicity of 154 gallons. Are these the inside diemensions of the tank?
This is the outside dimensions. so I'm assuming we can take 1" off of every end.

 

[posiden]

Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3295038
I welcome all suggestions I personally feel I am on the home stretch at this point... there is so little I have left to do. I still need to understand what you and Posiden were saying about overflow. That is one of the many parts I am still VERY confused and most concerned about. What exactly prevents from overflow? So if I have 125 gallons of water in there... it will go into the O/F it will drain into the pipe in the O/F drain down and fill up in the refuge then into the sump, then back into the aquarium. Is this right? Or am I adding water in the aqarium, the refuge, AND the sump?
Very briefly cause I have to go. The OF can only drain out what the return pump puts into the DT. The new bulk heads you just drilled today are the same thing in a different configuration. That's why the refug tank wont see any kind of a rush of water, just what the drain feeds it. It is also not the lowest point in YOUR system. So, its acting like your DT is. Its only draining what its being fed. I get more in depth tomorrow so you have my explanition. I'm sure 2Quills is willing to give you his. At least I hope he is.
I'm not trying to get into any kind of war with 2Quills. Just trying to give different options. Nothing more. As it has been said, I do see things a little different. Yes the system will run based on what 2Quills has told you. No problem. I just wanted to give you another option. One with a little more sucrity and handleing ability. Wether or not you split the drain, a Herbie is better IMO then a single Durso or a Stockman stand pipe. The saftey that the check valve "can" give, is built into the Herbie drain. Only there isn't any moving parts to maintane. But your gonna have to cut the hood to make it work. That or drill the tank, either in or out of the OF.
Gotts run man. Stay dry.

 

[posiden]

Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3295058
This is the outside dimensions. so I'm assuming we can take 1" off of every end.
Ok, I'll take 1" off each side. I'll let you know tomorrow about the teeth OF. That's why I need to know the diemensions.

 

[2quills]

Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3295038
I welcome all suggestions I personally feel I am on the home stretch at this point... there is so little I have left to do. I still need to understand what you and Posiden were saying about overflow. That is one of the many parts I am still VERY confused and most concerned about. What exactly prevents from overflow? So if I have 125 gallons of water in there... it will go into the O/F it will drain into the pipe in the O/F drain down and fill up in the refuge then into the sump, then back into the aquarium. Is this right? Or am I adding water in the aqarium, the refuge, AND the sump?
You will fill all 3. The way it works is water is pumped into your tank via the return pump...as water is pumped in, it also drains out of the overflow in an equal amount. So your tank will only drain the same amount of water that is being pumped in. It just keeps going around in a cycle. If the pump stops then the water stops draining. But there is a short amount of time water will keep draining until the water level drops below the teeth on the overflow. This will only be a minimal amount so it's not a huge concern, but you will see the water level rise in the sump just a bit because of it.
The area of most concern comes from the return inside of the display tank. Think of your return line as a syphon hose. When the pump is running it is pushing water one way. But when it gets shut off then gravity will cause it to flow the opposite way and this is called backfeed. And this is what you want to minimize as much as possible because if you don't then it can and will keep draining until it is stoped somehow, either by introducing air into the line to break the syphon or untill the water in the tank drains down till it is below your returns.
There are different ways that people will use to stop this. Some people chose not even to have their returns under the water line...therefore they don't have to worry about this at all. Some people have return tubes that hang over the back of their tank and they drill a hole in it right at or just above the water line which causes air to get introduced into the line when the pump goes off. Some folks keep their returns way under the water line and rely on check valves (not many people but some do). Some folks set their returns at the water line and just plan for and expect to have a little bit of backfeed untill it stops so their sumps are set up to handle it. And some do a combination of those things just as back ups for the "what ifs".
It's really all up to you which way you want to go. I think I showed you before but I'll show you again how I plan on running my system. Not that I'm saying this is what you should do...I'm just showing you what I am going to do.
My tank will have 2 overflow boxes and 1 return line that is split into 2 lines once it reaches the tank. I have a couple of different nozzles on my returns. The ones on the ends direct water downwards into the tank. Then there are 2 nozzles in the middle of my returns (one on each side) that will be set right at the surface of the water. Once the return pump gets shut off then I will have a little bit of backfeed going into my sump before air starts getting sucked in and breaks the syphon. And that's fine with me because I know that the return section on my sump can handle the little bit of extra water without overflowing into the other chambers.

 

[sparty059]

Originally Posted by Posiden
http:///forum/post/3295060
Very briefly cause I have to go. The OF can only drain out what the return pump puts into the DT. The new bulk heads you just drilled today are the same thing in a different configuration. That's why the refug tank wont see any kind of a rush of water, just what the drain feeds it. It is also not the lowest point in YOUR system. So, its acting like your DT is. Its only draining what its being fed. I get more in depth tomorrow so you have my explanition. I'm sure 2Quills is willing to give you his. At least I hope he is.
I'm not trying to get into any kind of war with 2Quills. Just trying to give different options. Nothing more. As it has been said, I do see things a little different. Yes the system will run based on what 2Quills has told you. No problem. I just wanted to give you another option. One with a little more sucrity and handleing ability. Wether or not you split the drain, a Herbie is better IMO then a single Durso or a Stockman stand pipe. The saftey that the check valve "can" give, is built into the Herbie drain. Only there isn't any moving parts to maintane. But your gonna have to cut the hood to make it work. That or drill the tank, either in or out of the OF.
Gotts run man. Stay dry.
Posiden,
When you get the chance, can you draw out an image of what you are talking about. I am interested in what you're saying but at the same time, I have NO CLUE what you mean... where would the tube go? You don't have to draw the canopy... just draw from the O/F and where the tube will be running, how it will branch off, and what again the benefit of this option would be. As I said before, I'm not set on going any specific route... while I do enjoy getting ALL OF THIS FEEDBACK I will be using only one option... However, as I am very confident that I will overly enjoy this hobby, I can see myself down the road getting another tank later in life and all of these suggestions will stick with me forever and will be a great amount of useful knowledge for my future tanks.

 

[sparty059]

Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3295063
You will fill all 3. The way it works is water is pumped into your tank via the return pump...as water is pumped in, it also drains out of the overflow in an equal amount. So your tank will only drain the same amount of water that is being pumped in. It just keeps going around in a cycle. If the pump stops then the water stops draining. But there is a short amount of time water will keep draining until the water level drops below the teeth on the overflow. This will only be a minimal amount so it's not a huge concern, but you will see the water level rise in the sump just a bit because of it.
The area of most concern comes from the return inside of the display tank. Think of your return line as a syphon hose. When the pump is running it is pushing water one way. But when it gets shut off then gravity will cause it to flow the opposite way and this is called backfeed. And this is what you want to minimize as much as possible because if you don't then it can and will keep draining until it is stoped somehow, either by introducing air into the line to break the syphon or untill the water in the tank drains down till it is below your returns.
There are different ways that people will use to stop this. Some people chose not even to have their returns under the water line...therefore they don't have to worry about this at all. Some people have return tubes that hang over the back of their tank and they drill a hole in it right at or just above the water line which causes air to get introduced into the line when the pump goes off. Some folks keep their returns way under the water line and rely on check valves (not many people but some do). Some folks set their returns at the water line and just plan for and expect to have a little bit of backfeed untill it stops so their sumps are set up to handle it. And some do a combination of those things just as back ups for the "what ifs".
It's really all up to you which way you want to go. I think I showed you before but I'll show you again how I plan on running my system. Not that I'm saying this is what you should do...I'm just showing you what I am going to do.
My tank will have 2 overflow boxes and 1 return line that is split into 2 lines once it reaches the tank. I have a couple of different nozzles on my returns. The ones on the ends direct water downwards into the tank. Then there are 2 nozzles in the middle of my returns (one on each side) that will be set right at the surface of the water. Once the return pump gets shut off then I will have a little bit of backfeed going into my sump before air starts getting sucked in and breaks the syphon. And that's fine with me because I know that the return section on my sump can handle the little bit of extra water without overflowing into the other chambers.
I'm going to have to reread this a few times to understand what exactly you are talking about. Is this picture of your sump/refuge? or is this of your main tank?

 

[2quills]

main tank...the tank is down right now because I'm completely rebuilding everything. new stand, new sump, skimmer, lights...the whole works. that was a pick of right after i drilled the tank for the overflows and return.

 

[sparty059]

And also, how would that work for overflow prevention then? This is where I am mainly confused. So if I fill my tank assuming it's 125 gallons... and I fill up my refuge which is 20 gallons, but probably around 18/19 gallons since there will be a 2 inch gap from the pipes to the top of the tank, and the sump to fill up also around 20 gallons... what prevents from water spilling over when everything stops and everything starts to drain? if it's constantly in the O/F then wouldn't I need to leave either the sump or refuge empty when starting and allow everything to fill it up on its own so I don't have to worry about having too much water in it?

 

[2quills]

the water in your fuge will only go as high as the drain...when the pump is running the water in the sump will only go as high as the baffles. There will be a few extra gallons in the system that are always in transition. When the pump is off then those extra gallons will drop down into the sump and you will the water level in the sump rise. When it's running then those extra gallons with be everwhere, in the drain and return lines. flowing over the baffles in the sump, some will be in the overflow box itself and in the main tank...etc.
Your sump won't have 20 gallons in it when it's running.

 

[sparty059]

Originally Posted by 2Quills
http:///forum/post/3295072
the water in your fuge will only go as high as the drain...when the pump is running the water in the sump will only go as high as the baffles. There will be a few extra gallons in the system that are always in transition. When the pump is off then those extra gallons will drop down into the sump and you will the water level in the sump rise. When it's running then those extra gallons with be everwhere, in the drain and return lines. flowing over the baffles in the sump, some will be in the overflow box itself and in the main tank...etc.
Your sump won't have 20 gallons in it when it's running.
Ok, I understand now. So with that being said, is it still ok that I have my baffles at 9" tall when the tank is only 12" tall? Or should I have them smaller? 6 9 6?

 

[2quills]

With proper set up, yes, you will be ok. Just have to figure out which method you will use for preventing backfeed is all.

 

[sparty059]

Ok. Here's the plan. I think everyone that has been helping out with this thread needs to take a few days off. I've been asking many questions and at this point I feel I have taken a GREAT amount of time out of everyones day/night. My girlfriend recently has been rolling her eyes when she notices that I am on the forum before bed, at work, while hanging out, and when I'm using my phone. So! With that being said, I will check back Monday with all the information and I will take this time to process the information I've received. Again, you ALL have been extremely helpful but I think right now I need to take a few day break, and I think many of you should too because of the time we have all spent on this forum! CHECK BACK MONDAY!

 

[acrylic51]

Originally Posted by Sparty059
http:///forum/post/3295079
Ok. Here's the plan. I think everyone that has been helping out with this thread needs to take a few days off. I've been asking many questions and at this point I feel I have taken a GREAT amount of time out of everyones day/night. My girlfriend recently has been rolling her eyes when she notices that I am on the forum before bed, at work, while hanging out, and when I'm using my phone. So! With that being said, I will check back Monday with all the information and I will take this time to process the information I've received. Again, you ALL have been extremely helpful but I think right now I need to take a few day break, and I think many of you should too because of the time we have all spent on this forum! CHECK BACK MONDAY!

Are you sure your girlfriend and my wife aren't sisters????? My wife does the exact same thing....The good thing, there's only so many places she has to hunt for me at.....The computer, garage, fishroom or Lowes, HD!!!!!!

 

[mooseythemoron]

Originally Posted by acrylic51
http:///forum/post/3295096

Are you sure your girlfriend and my wife aren't sisters????? My wife does the exact same thing....The good thing, there's only so many places she has to hunt for me at.....The computer, garage, fishroom or Lowes, HD!!!!!!
We are all in the same boat

 

[sparty059]

I said I wouldn't but I just want to work on a few things... I know I told everyone not to check the thread, so if you don't respond until Monday that's fine. I had a chance to take apart the aquarium. This is what the overflow tube looks like...
Attachment 245227
So should I still replace this? It looks like the people before me bought this from a store... but you are all saying to get a tube that will be taller without any holes in it. Is this still what you all feel to be correct?
I'm going to keep a short post since I don't plan on doing much research or work today... as I said I wouldn't!