"If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon," said our president.

[mantisman51]

What has surprised me is how even with the prosecution witnesses, Zman has come across as a guy who took quite a beating before drawing and firing his pistol. So the only question so far is if he started the confrontation. And that cannot be answered by anyone but one of two people involved. Ergo, no proof beyond a reasonable doubt for reckless homicide, let alone muder. If it was not being pimped by the media as "another black kid killed by racist whitey", this would have been dropped months ago.

 

[mantisman51]

What has surprised me is how even with the prosecution witnesses, Zman has come across as a guy who took quite a beating before drawing and firing his pistol. So the only question so far is if he started the confrontation. And that cannot be answered by anyone but one of two people involved. Ergo, no proof beyond a reasonable doubt for reckless homicide, let alone muder. If it was not being pimped by the media as "another black kid killed by racist whitey", this would have been dropped months ago.

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/240#post_3524971
The DA is in Huge Trouble right now. His so called Star Witness admitted under Oath that she can not READ or Write Cursive and she was supposed to have sent a letter Written in Cursive to the POLICE in that.
My understanding is that she sent that letter to Treyvon's mother, not the police. But, apparently she can't really say what is in the letter, since she can't read it.
Truthfully, I think the prosecution is cursing Angela Corey, special prosecutor, at this point. She showboated, then left them to pick up the pieces. Rick Scott, R-gov. FL, also responsible for making this political. The case should have stayed in hands of the Sanford, FL authorities.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/240#post_3524962
I haven't watched anything on TV. What has the judge been doing to tip the scales?
I agree that manslaughter would have been the fairer charge.
The judge refused to allow any of the records of the martin kid's past troubles in as evidence but allowed Zimmerman's previous 911 call to be played. So Zimmerman's prior acts are relevant but the kid's aren't?

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/240#post_3524977
My understanding is that she sent that letter to Treyvon's mother, not the police. But, apparently she can't really say what is in the letter, since she can't read it.
Truthfully, I think the prosecution is cursing Angela Corey, special prosecutor, at this point. She showboated, then left them to pick up the pieces. Rick Scott, R-gov. FL, also responsible for making this political. The case should have stayed in hands of the Sanford, FL authorities.
They engaged in a politically motivated prosecution without considering the politics involved. They could make the case Zman erred in following the kid and maybe make a manslaughter case but after seeing the state's two big gun witnesses I don't even think they could get that. Reckless endangerment is probably what they should have charged. They could make the case that following the yut (i love that movie) with a gun in his possession created a lethal situation.

 

[acrylic51]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/240#post_3524972
What has surprised me is how even with the prosecution witnesses, Zman has come across as a guy who took quite a beating before drawing and firing his pistol. So the only question so far is if he started the confrontation. And that cannot be answered by anyone but one of two people involved. Ergo, no proof beyond a reasonable doubt for reckless homicide, let alone muder. If it was not being pimped by the media as "another black kid killed by racist whitey", this would have been dropped months ago.
Curious how you would consider he didn't start the confrontation.....If you follow someone and then it was readily admitted he left his vehicle or whatever to get a house number....You were instigating a confrontation.......Just my .02

 

[beth]

I won't answer for mantis, but my own 02cents is that following someone does not constitute starting a confrontation. To start a confrontation you need to actually walk up to engage someone face to face, and not just to say hey how you doing.
Lets say Zimmerman did catch up to Treyvon and ask him what he was doing. Does that constitute initiating an altercation? Its not illegal to ask someone what they are doing. Actually, we don't really know if Zimmerman said that, since the only witness to that is so uttlerly unreliable. There is just too many unknowns to go with a murder charge.
I can see that Zimmerman may have committed reckless endangerment given the circumstances of what happened.

 

[mantisman51]

That's really silly Acrylic. So, if I think someone is following me, I can attack them? Secondly, I have said from my first post(go look at page 1) that Zman should have been charged with reckless endangerment or manslaughter if he was walking too closely to Martin, in a way that could be consrtued as a threat. But the idea anyone can attack another simply for following them is rather ridiculous.

 

[mantisman51]

Let me explain my position. Where I live on the border, I see thousands of illegals. I call Border Patrol and report them, and I often keep an eye on them from my viehicle. Due to the cartel murder of 3 BP agents and a rancher who lived nearby, I am always packing a gun or 3. Following them, at a distance(100' or so BP tell me should be the minimum), I am not bteaking the law and if attacked, can protect myself. However, if I try to detain them and have to use deadly force, then I am guilty of harrassment if there's no injury, all the way up to murder, but only if I CONFRONT and attempt to detain them. Following them, even on foot, is not a crime and is not justification for them to attack. I have spoken with probably 20 BP and Cochise County deputies and have gotten the same info every time.

 

[2quills]

If he was close enough to ask what he was doing there then it sounds like he did confront him. But we don't know how true that really is. The mere fact that there was a confrontation sounds like someone confonted somebody. From the evidence and whitnesses so far though I can't see how they're going to get a murder conviction.

 

[reefraff]

The wheels are coming off this case. So far two of the prosecutions witnesses have helped Zman more than the prosecution and the prosecutor is currently attacking his own witness.
Even if Zimmerman walked up and asked Martin what he was doing that isn't justification to be struck. Unless there is a witness who is credible and saw Zimmerman start a physical altercation they don't have a chance. AND AND AND, even if Zimmerman started the fight I am not sure second degree murder is the right charge. Zimmerman didn't pull the gun until after Martin had started beating on him. I am not a lawyer and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night that takes murder off the table. It wasn't premeditated and he didn't act, he reacted to Martin striking him. Involuntary manslaughter seems to have been the most serious charge they could have made against him claiming he didn't need to shoot Martin to protect himself. That is subjective to Zimmerman's mindset and still a hard case to make. Reckless endangerment is defined as engaging in an activity that causes danger to others. You could make the case Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his car with the gun.
I think the prosecutor made a tremendous mistake. By over charging to appease the loud voices he has practically insured Zimmerman is going to walk which is really going to stir things up.

 

[deejeff442]

i didnt stay at a holiday inn last night ...awesome lol... this is all about the media. this is why they first called him a white/hispanic. the race card in the media is so sickening

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/260#post_3525078
I think the prosecutor made a tremendous mistake. By over charging to appease the loud voices he has practically insured Zimmerman is going to walk which is really going to stir things up.
Not necessarily. In the murder trail I sat in last year (FLA court) the prosecutor was going for 1st degree murder, however, the jury had the option to convict on 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder (with a depraved mind), as well as 2 different degrees of manslaughter. So, while Zimmerman's prosecution may be for 2nd degree murder, the jury may have the options to convict on lessor charges. This would narrow the changes of him walking free.
The crime of Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways, either by:
[list type=decimal]
[*]
Manslaughter by Act: Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.
[*]
Manslaughter by Procurement: Persuading, inducing, or encouraging another person to commit an act that resulted in the death of another person.
Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence: Engaging in “Culpably Negligent” conduct that resulted in the death of another person.
[/list type=decimal]

 

[mantisman51]

And that's why I get so wound up over this case. The courts, for better or worse, will work thriugh this. But the race-bating media wanted civil unrest, and if a few whites die, so much the better. They knew and wanted black people to get upset so they would turn out for their candidate. Because "only a black president can make things better for you". Trayvon Martin was a poster child for what blacks could look forward to if their messiah wasn't re-elected. So they made it about race to prop up Obama's (then) flagging re-election campaign. The economy still sucked, he gave billuins to rich white guys he destroyed our economy, so this was the perfect get out the black vote ploy. Yes, I think it eas that diabolical by the media and yes, I think the democrats were coordinating with the media.

 

[mantisman51]

And that's why I get so wound up over this case. The courts, for better or worse, will work thriugh this. But the race-bating media wanted civil unrest, and if a few whites die, so much the better. They knew and wanted black people to get upset so they would turn out for their candidate. Because "only a black president can make things better for you". Trayvon Martin was a poster child for what blacks could look forward to if their messiah wasn't re-elected. So they made it about race to prop up Obama's (then) flagging re-election campaign. The economy still sucked, he gave billuins to rich white guys he destroyed our economy, so this was the perfect get out the black vote ploy. Yes, I think it eas that diabolical by the media and yes, I think the democrats were coordinating with the media.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/260#post_3525082
Not necessarily. In the murder trail I sat in last year (FLA court) the prosecutor was going for 1st degree murder, however, the jury had the option to convict on 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder (with a depraved mind), as well as 2 different degrees of manslaughter. So, while Zimmerman's prosecution may be for 2nd degree murder, the jury may have the options to convict on lessor charges. This would narrow the changes of him walking free.
The crime of Manslaughter can be committed in one of three ways, either by:
[list type=decimal]
[*]
Manslaughter by Act: Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.
[*]
Manslaughter by Procurement: Persuading, inducing, or encouraging another person to commit an act that resulted in the death of another person.
Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence: Engaging in “Culpably Negligent” conduct that resulted in the death of another person.
[/list type=decimal]
The way I heard it is the way this was charged they didn't include lessor charges so it's 2nd degree murder or nothing.

 

[deejeff442]

mantis i am with you.problem is white people will complain but wont vote. the minorities go and vote. if 60% of the majoriety would vote Obama would never be president.it killed me to vote Romney but i did it. i dont like him but he would have done alot less damage than Obama.now we have Hillery coming next who do the repubs. have?

 

[beth]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reefraff http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/260#post_3525088
The way I heard it is the way this was charged they didn't include lessor charges so it's 2nd degree murder or nothing.
No, prosecutor usually goes for the highest charge they make, but the jury can be asked to consider all the lessor charges as well.
Surprised me when that was an option in the trail I was involved it, but that's how it worked.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/260#post_3525091
No, prosecutor usually goes for the highest charge they make, but the jury can be asked to consider all the lessor charges as well.
Surprised me when that was an option in the trail I was involved it, but that's how it worked.
Yeah but they have to charge it for it to be an option I believe. Count 1, second degree murder, Count 2, involuntary manslaughter etc. In this case they only charged murder 2. Could be wrong but that's what one of the talking head lawyers on TV was talking about back when they were picking the jury. I guess we'll find out cause at this rate no way do they have a murder conviction on him.

 

[reefraff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by deejeff442 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/260#post_3525090
mantis i am with you.problem is white people will complain but wont vote. the minorities go and vote. if 60% of the majoriety would vote Obama would never be president.it killed me to vote Romney but i did it. i dont like him but he would have done alot less damage than Obama.now we have Hillery coming next who do the repubs. have?
Probably Chris Christie and I wont vote for that steaming pile of cow dung.