"If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon," said our president.

mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
p.s. Bear in mind, I do the community watch for my rural area and frequently(thanks to the idiots in the Senate talking amnesty) have to call in and report illegals wandering my property all the time. I don't know if they're going to pick melons in Salinas or cartel soldiers escorting millions in drugs. Zman was wrong in pursuing Martin. Whether he wanted a confrontation or not. He caused what happened. He needs to pay for his bad judgement.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/280#post_3525227
I won't dispute anything you wrote IE. But, Zman put himself and Martin in the position of having the confrontation. I agree that being followed is not justification for assault. However, put yourself in Trayvon's shoes for a moment. You are innocently walking to the store and some guy follows you and when you hide, he gets out of his truck to find you. It then becomes fight or flight in your mind. And if I thought a guy with a gun was after me, I would probably do the same thing. And, having been the victim of an attack like this can assure you, you absolutely want to disable the aggressor and get his weapon. I think Trayvon was justified in wanting to end the threat. I also thinkZmam was justified in defending himself at that point. But Zman put them both in that position and needs to pay for that reckless behavior.
They might make a case for reckless endangerment which is engaging in an otherwise legal activity in a manner that could put others at risk. But I don't believe Zimmerman deserves jail time. You have to remember he never pulled his gun until after he was attacked. Whether or not Martin was up to no good or not isn't relevant. There's a reason why the authorities declined to prosecute this case until politics got involved. Given the evidence in hand it's a weak case. Zimmerman never broke any laws so it's simply a case of poor judgement causing a tragedy.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
IIRC in Florida deadly force is authorized if you feel threatened.
Personally, I would feel threatened if I was getting my arse kicked.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, but is he responsible for setting up the situation that resulted in the death of an underage teen. If so, he could be guilty of manslaughter.
If Treyvon went for the gun as Zimmerman claims, then its justifiable homicide. However, there is no one who knows if that happened or not, except for Zimmerman.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Even though Zman was being attacked and fealt in fear of his life and us justified in protecting himself, he caused the whole situation by recklessly pursuing an innocent teenager. That action set up the rest of what happened. An innocent kid is dead who would otherwise be alive because of Zman's reckless actions. For that alone, Zman deserves prison time. Are the race pimps and media using this in a disgusting attempt to stir up racial divisiveness? Absolutely! But that does not absolve Zman of his recklessness causing the death if a young man. Zman caused the whole situation, Martin did nothing to cause it. What happened after the pursuit is tragic, but secondary to Zman's dumb actions. He has to be held accountable for this boy's death.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
Are you asking if he provoked the attack? I don't believe the prosecution can prove Zimmerman provoked the attack.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
No. The attack and subsequent altercation was set up by Zman's initial reckless pursuit. What I think is regardless of who swung first, the reckless actions by Zman set up the situation in the first place.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
I think the prosecutor is going to have a difficult time proving that to a jury. Especially with all the SKYPE interruptions.
 
reefraff

reefraff

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisman51 http:///t/391112/if-i-had-a-son-he-would-look-like-trayvon-said-our-president/300#post_3525251
No. The attack and subsequent altercation was set up by Zman's initial reckless pursuit. What I think is regardless of who swung first, the reckless actions by Zman set up the situation in the first place.
What was reckless about it? There is absolutely zero evidence Zimmerman did anything but follow the guy. When the dispatcher told him they didn't need him to follow Zimmerman complied even though the dispatcher had no authority to order him not to. There's nothing to show Zimmerman wasn't heading back to his car and apparently there are no witnesses who saw what led up to the physical confrontation. Absent of that you gotta go with the physical evidence. Zimmerman is the only one with any signs of being struck. Gunshot residue shows that Martin's shirt was pulled away from his body which indicated he was leaning forward and the only eyewitness to the actual fight says it was Martin on top with Zimmerman yelling for help.
Never underestimate the dumbassness of a jury but I doubt the prosecutor could get them to find him guilty of reckless endangerment at this point. I was watching a couple lawyers kick this around today and they both said without the political spotlight this would have never made it into a courtroom no matter what. It should have been plead.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Zman should not have left his vehicle for any reason-especially at night. Trayvon did everything right and got killed for it. He noticed he was being followed and ran toward home. When he was still being followed HE HID! When Zman left his truck in pursuit of a totally innocent boy, he put Trayvon Martin in a no-win situation. If he was caught by this lunatic with a gun, he thought he woyld be harmed and acted out of fear. Zman getting out of his truck when Martin hid was a confirmation of Trayvon's fear, "This guy is out to get me". Does Trayvon not have the right to stand his ground after his every attempt to allude his pursuer was unsuccesfull? Zman was harrassing an innocent young man. His job is to report suspiscious activity, not help catch people. His following a scared teenage boy late at night is reckless. And I have had a change of heart. If acquitted by Florida, I hope Holder does charge Zman with violating Martin's civil rights. If an innocent teenager doesn't have the right to go to the damned store without being harrassed by a flunky community watch clown, this country is in trouble. An innoccent boy us dead and a 33 y/o man caused it by hus over-aggressive pursuit. He called the cops, he should have never left his truck. If Zman isn't responsible, then every bar fight should not be prosecuted, because the guy who started it was "just defending himself". I hate race pimps. I hate anti-gun nuts. But take them out of the equation and you can see an innoccent boy is dead because of a civuluan Barney Fife. And Barney Zman needs to pay foe his bad judgement.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Zman should not have left his vehicle for any reason-especially at night. Trayvon did everything right and got killed for it. He noticed he was being followed and ran toward home. When he was still being followed HE HID! When Zman left his truck in pursuit of a totally innocent boy, he put Trayvon Martin in a no-win situation. If he was caught by this lunatic with a gun, he thought he woyld be harmed and acted out of fear. Zman getting out of his truck when Martin hid was a confirmation of Trayvon's fear, "This guy is out to get me". Does Trayvon not have the right to stand his ground after his every attempt to allude his pursuer was unsuccesfull? Zman was harrassing an innocent young man. His job is to report suspiscious activity, not help catch people. His following a scared teenage boy late at night is reckless. And I have had a change of heart. If acquitted by Florida, I hope Holder does charge Zman with violating Martin's civil rights. If an innocent teenager doesn't have the right to go to the damned store without being harrassed by a flunky community watch clown, this country is in trouble. An innoccent boy us dead and a 33 y/o man caused it by hus over-aggressive pursuit. He called the cops, he should have never left his truck. If Zman isn't responsible, then every bar fight should not be prosecuted, because the guy who started it was "just defending himself". I hate race pimps. I hate anti-gun nuts. But take them out of the equation and you can see an innoccent boy is dead because of a civuluan Barney Fife. And Barney Zman needs to pay foe his bad judgement.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
Zman should not have left his vehicle for any reason-especially at night. Trayvon did everything right and got killed for it. He noticed he was being followed and ran toward home. When he was still being followed HE HID! When Zman left his truck in pursuit of a totally innocent boy, he put Trayvon Martin in a no-win situation. If he was caught by this lunatic with a gun, he thought he woyld be harmed and acted out of fear. Zman getting out of his truck when Martin hid was a confirmation of Trayvon's fear, "This guy is out to get me". Does Trayvon not have the right to stand his ground after his every attempt to allude his pursuer was unsuccesfull? Zman was harrassing an innocent young man. His job is to report suspiscious activity, not help catch people. His following a scared teenage boy late at night is reckless. And I have had a change of heart. If acquitted by Florida, I hope Holder does charge Zman with violating Martin's civil rights. If an innocent teenager doesn't have the right to go to the damned store without being harrassed by a flunky community watch clown, this country is in trouble. An innoccent boy us dead and a 33 y/o man caused it by hus over-aggressive pursuit. He called the cops, he should have never left his truck. If Zman isn't responsible, then every bar fight should not be prosecuted, because the guy who started it was "just defending himself". I hate race pimps. I hate anti-gun nuts. But take them out of the equation and you can see an innoccent boy is dead because of a civuluan Barney Fife. And Barney Zman needs to pay foe his bad judgement.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
It is exactly what Zman said happened. He followed Martin for 4 blocks. Martin ran, Zman followed. Martin hid in bushes Zman got out to supposedly "get the address. On his way back to his truck, Martin jumped out of a bush and attacked him. From Trayvon's perspective he was being pursued. And when he hid, the guy got out to look for him. That is seeing both sides. Something far too many white people can't or won't do. If I were being followed at night and after running and hidibg the guy gets out and walks in my direction, I am going to protect myself. And you can believe every word Zman has said, and I do, and still see how Martin could have felt threatened. Zman caused the altercation-he was pursuing Trayvon, Trayvon never chased Martin. Even Zman has said Trayvon jumped out of a bush Zman was walking by. Zman followed and went to where Martin was. For whatever reason, Zman caused this.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
It is exactly what Zman said happened. He followed Martin for 4 blocks. Martin ran, Zman followed. Martin hid in bushes Zman got out to supposedly "get the address. On his way back to his truck, Martin jumped out of a bush and attacked him. From Trayvon's perspective he was being pursued. And when he hid, the guy got out to look for him. That is seeing both sides. Something far too many white people can't or won't do. If I were being followed at night and after running and hidibg the guy gets out and walks in my direction, I am going to protect myself. And you can believe every word Zman has said, and I do, and still see how Martin could have felt threatened. Zman caused the altercation-he was pursuing Trayvon, Trayvon never chased Zman. Even Zman has said Trayvon jumped out of a bush Zman was walking by. Zman followed and went to where Martin was. For whatever reason, Zman caused this.
 
beth

beth

Administrator
Staff member
One thing that is troubling is that Treyvon for sure knew he was being scoped out. Zim told this to the dispatcher, and in the testimony and map used in court Treyvon walked toward the turnoff (sidewalk) home, but then turned back around and walked back toward Zim while he was still in the truck. He turned back around, then walked back toward home. Zim got out of the truck to follow. That Zim did not "confront" the kid when he walked passed the truck (knowing that Martin knew he was being watched) tells me that he did not have confrontation on his mind.
Actually, Martin was just feet way from his father's condo and could have easily sprinted home...if only he had. He had the poor judgment of a teen and Zim should have know better then to do what he did. I think Zim actually did loose track of Martin and was heading back to the truck when he was confronted by Martin.
 
mantisman51

mantisman51

Active Member
No I don't think Zman was "out to get" Treyvon. But I can understand how Treyvon, who had been followed by a stranger who got out of his vehicle after Treyvon hid, could reasonably fear that. Zman getting out of his truck would have confirmed this fear that this "strange guy" who had been following him was coming after him. And don't forget, Treyvon had as much right to "stand his ground" as Zman did-even more since Zman was pursuing him. But Zman leaving his truck precipitated all that happened after. That was what was reckless, especially when Treyvon had no reason to be suspected of anything.
 
bang guy

bang guy

Moderator
I'm not following how it is reckless to patrol your gated community and follow someone who doesn't live there to make sure they leave. Especially considering that there were past break-ins.
I agree that under Florida law Treyvon could have felt threatened and used lethal force against Zimmerman. But Treyvon is not on trial.
 
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