Might need to rethink that cruel and unusual punishment thing
- Thread starter reefraff
- Start date
ibanez
Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254849
The screwup in the wife's family was the middle kid. Heck as the youngest my wife still tells about not being able to watch Dark Shadows, her parents weren't overly stict but they did stick to their standards. In my case my dad was a drunk and it did nothing but get worse. In theory it should have been the older 2 that turned out better, he was a lot more normal when they were little. I just don't buy that you can lay blame on parents every time. Ill manners and lack of responsibility I can buy (at least until the kid is grown) more than this type of behavior.
I would say that because of your dads problem, he made sure to put off any responsibilities of teaching you right from wrong, and he made you feel as though you were completely responsible for your own actions. That way he felt no remorse for neglecting you and not being able to control himself. In other words, your dad is probably the reason you feel this way, and so strongly about it.
Why couldn't your dad control his actions? Did he not know right from wrong? Did he not care about what he was doing to his family? Or, did he have problems due to the way he was raised? Was his old man abusive, alcoholic? Did he have a lot of unresolved issues that he couldn't face due to mental disorders or abuse.
http:///forum/post/3254849
The screwup in the wife's family was the middle kid. Heck as the youngest my wife still tells about not being able to watch Dark Shadows, her parents weren't overly stict but they did stick to their standards. In my case my dad was a drunk and it did nothing but get worse. In theory it should have been the older 2 that turned out better, he was a lot more normal when they were little. I just don't buy that you can lay blame on parents every time. Ill manners and lack of responsibility I can buy (at least until the kid is grown) more than this type of behavior.
I would say that because of your dads problem, he made sure to put off any responsibilities of teaching you right from wrong, and he made you feel as though you were completely responsible for your own actions. That way he felt no remorse for neglecting you and not being able to control himself. In other words, your dad is probably the reason you feel this way, and so strongly about it.
Why couldn't your dad control his actions? Did he not know right from wrong? Did he not care about what he was doing to his family? Or, did he have problems due to the way he was raised? Was his old man abusive, alcoholic? Did he have a lot of unresolved issues that he couldn't face due to mental disorders or abuse.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3254856
If you don't know your kid hangs in crime ridden apartments with older men having s.ex for money.... you are not paying close enough attention.
Did you ever tell your parents you were going one place and ended up somewhere else?
Until something bad happens how would the parents know? My kid's senior year he cut a couple classes and went up on the mountain to drink beer with his buddies. Had I not been laid up in a hospital bed in the livingroom I wouldn't have seen him stagger in about half crocked. We would have known he cut class but not that he was drinking. Kids are sneaky.
http:///forum/post/3254856
If you don't know your kid hangs in crime ridden apartments with older men having s.ex for money.... you are not paying close enough attention.
Did you ever tell your parents you were going one place and ended up somewhere else?
Until something bad happens how would the parents know? My kid's senior year he cut a couple classes and went up on the mountain to drink beer with his buddies. Had I not been laid up in a hospital bed in the livingroom I wouldn't have seen him stagger in about half crocked. We would have known he cut class but not that he was drinking. Kids are sneaky.
meowzer
Moderator
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254892
Did you ever tell your parents you were going one place and ended up somewhere else?
Until something bad happens how would the parents know? My kid's senior year he cut a couple classes and went up on the mountain to drink beer with his buddies. Had I not been laid up in a hospital bed in the livingroom I wouldn't have seen him stagger in about half crocked. We would have known he cut class but not that he was drinking. Kids are sneaky.
Didn't it say in the story that the 15 year old had PRIOR prostitution charges against her? IMO that would be my first clue....NO WAY would she ever be left alone with a 7 year old, or any other child for that matter....she needed help and apaprently wasn't getting it
http:///forum/post/3254892
Did you ever tell your parents you were going one place and ended up somewhere else?
Until something bad happens how would the parents know? My kid's senior year he cut a couple classes and went up on the mountain to drink beer with his buddies. Had I not been laid up in a hospital bed in the livingroom I wouldn't have seen him stagger in about half crocked. We would have known he cut class but not that he was drinking. Kids are sneaky.
Didn't it say in the story that the 15 year old had PRIOR prostitution charges against her? IMO that would be my first clue....NO WAY would she ever be left alone with a 7 year old, or any other child for that matter....she needed help and apaprently wasn't getting it
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3254880
I would say that because of your dads problem, he made sure to put off any responsibilities of teaching you right from wrong, and he made you feel as though you were completely responsible for your own actions. That way he felt no remorse for neglecting you and not being able to control himself. In other words, your dad is probably the reason you feel this way, and so strongly about it.
Why couldn't your dad control his actions? Did he not know right from wrong? Did he not care about what he was doing to his family? Or, did he have problems due to the way he was raised? Was his old man abusive, alcoholic? Did he have a lot of unresolved issues that he couldn't face due to mental disorders or abuse.
My dad was raised by a fine Mormon faimily in Northern Utah, His upbringing didn't seem to effect his siblings. Again how do you explain one bad apple out of 5? He was second to the youngest. If he had issues with his family he never mentioned it and in fact once his mom's health started failing he moved back to Utah and cared for her until she died. Thats when he switched from Whiskey to Vodka, you could hide Vodka in OJ containers LOL! When I was a kid he was never abusive, just a blue ribbon 5 star drunk. I can only remember one spanking at his hand. Not to say my mom didn't have to lower the boom on "A few" occasions
That being responsible for your own actions is something I think more people need instelled in them, and I aint talking about kids either.
http:///forum/post/3254880
I would say that because of your dads problem, he made sure to put off any responsibilities of teaching you right from wrong, and he made you feel as though you were completely responsible for your own actions. That way he felt no remorse for neglecting you and not being able to control himself. In other words, your dad is probably the reason you feel this way, and so strongly about it.
Why couldn't your dad control his actions? Did he not know right from wrong? Did he not care about what he was doing to his family? Or, did he have problems due to the way he was raised? Was his old man abusive, alcoholic? Did he have a lot of unresolved issues that he couldn't face due to mental disorders or abuse.
My dad was raised by a fine Mormon faimily in Northern Utah, His upbringing didn't seem to effect his siblings. Again how do you explain one bad apple out of 5? He was second to the youngest. If he had issues with his family he never mentioned it and in fact once his mom's health started failing he moved back to Utah and cared for her until she died. Thats when he switched from Whiskey to Vodka, you could hide Vodka in OJ containers LOL! When I was a kid he was never abusive, just a blue ribbon 5 star drunk. I can only remember one spanking at his hand. Not to say my mom didn't have to lower the boom on "A few" occasions
That being responsible for your own actions is something I think more people need instelled in them, and I aint talking about kids either.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3254894
Didn't it say in the story that the 15 year old had PRIOR prostitution charges against her? IMO that would be my first clue....NO WAY would she ever be left alone with a 7 year old, or any other child for that matter....she needed help and apaprently wasn't getting it
All I saw was she was selling it that night but I suspect that wasn't the first time. I just skimmed back through the article and there is no mention of priors I saw.
http:///forum/post/3254894
Didn't it say in the story that the 15 year old had PRIOR prostitution charges against her? IMO that would be my first clue....NO WAY would she ever be left alone with a 7 year old, or any other child for that matter....she needed help and apaprently wasn't getting it
All I saw was she was selling it that night but I suspect that wasn't the first time. I just skimmed back through the article and there is no mention of priors I saw.
meowzer
Moderator
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254902
All I saw was she was selling it that night but I suspect that wasn't the first time. I just skimmed back through the article and there is no mention of priors I saw.
It's on page 2.....I missed it the first time too...LOL...I re-read the whole thing after a comment that Cran made
Before Saturday's arrest announcement, the 15-year-old had been charged with promoting prostitution, aggravated sexual assault and other crimes. Police have not released her name, and she remained in juvenile detention Saturday night.
http:///forum/post/3254902
All I saw was she was selling it that night but I suspect that wasn't the first time. I just skimmed back through the article and there is no mention of priors I saw.
It's on page 2.....I missed it the first time too...LOL...I re-read the whole thing after a comment that Cran made
Before Saturday's arrest announcement, the 15-year-old had been charged with promoting prostitution, aggravated sexual assault and other crimes. Police have not released her name, and she remained in juvenile detention Saturday night.
ibanez
Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254899
My dad was raised by a fine Mormon faimily in Northern Utah, His upbringing didn't seem to effect his siblings. Again how do you explain one bad apple out of 5? He was second to the youngest. If he had issues with his family he never mentioned it and in fact once his mom's health started failing he moved back to Utah and cared for her until she died. Thats when he switched from Whiskey to Vodka, you could hide Vodka in OJ containers LOL! When I was a kid he was never abusive, just a blue ribbon 5 star drunk. I can only remember one spanking at his hand. Not to say my mom didn't have to lower the boom on "A few" occasions
That being responsible for your own actions is something I think more people need instelled in them, and I aint talking about kids either.
I know one thing, I worked in the beer business for a few years and I never saw a happy drunk. Every one of them was trying to drown their sorrows. It takes something pretty strong in order for someone to not find joy in their own marriage, and children and need to drown out the world in booz. I have seen that cycle play out in my family on my dads side. The only thing that changed him was the Bible. Two of the 4 boys of the family turned out just like their dear old dad, my grandfather who rarely spoke to me until right before he died of cancer at 67 years old.
http:///forum/post/3254899
My dad was raised by a fine Mormon faimily in Northern Utah, His upbringing didn't seem to effect his siblings. Again how do you explain one bad apple out of 5? He was second to the youngest. If he had issues with his family he never mentioned it and in fact once his mom's health started failing he moved back to Utah and cared for her until she died. Thats when he switched from Whiskey to Vodka, you could hide Vodka in OJ containers LOL! When I was a kid he was never abusive, just a blue ribbon 5 star drunk. I can only remember one spanking at his hand. Not to say my mom didn't have to lower the boom on "A few" occasions
That being responsible for your own actions is something I think more people need instelled in them, and I aint talking about kids either.
I know one thing, I worked in the beer business for a few years and I never saw a happy drunk. Every one of them was trying to drown their sorrows. It takes something pretty strong in order for someone to not find joy in their own marriage, and children and need to drown out the world in booz. I have seen that cycle play out in my family on my dads side. The only thing that changed him was the Bible. Two of the 4 boys of the family turned out just like their dear old dad, my grandfather who rarely spoke to me until right before he died of cancer at 67 years old.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3254908
I know one thing, I worked in the beer business for a few years and I never saw a happy drunk. Every one of them was trying to drown their sorrows. It takes something pretty strong in order for someone to not find joy in their own marriage, and children and need to drown out the world in booz. I have seen that cycle play out in my family on my dads side. The only thing that changed him was the Bible. Two of the 4 boys of the family turned out just like their dear old dad, my grandfather who rarely spoke to me until right before he died of cancer at 67 years old.
And some people are drunks because they like to drink and become addicted. I would say having an addiction you can't kick would tend to make a drunk pretty unhappy. Being a drunk in of itself is abuse but my father was never abusive to us kids, my mom would have beat him senseless.
http:///forum/post/3254908
I know one thing, I worked in the beer business for a few years and I never saw a happy drunk. Every one of them was trying to drown their sorrows. It takes something pretty strong in order for someone to not find joy in their own marriage, and children and need to drown out the world in booz. I have seen that cycle play out in my family on my dads side. The only thing that changed him was the Bible. Two of the 4 boys of the family turned out just like their dear old dad, my grandfather who rarely spoke to me until right before he died of cancer at 67 years old.
And some people are drunks because they like to drink and become addicted. I would say having an addiction you can't kick would tend to make a drunk pretty unhappy. Being a drunk in of itself is abuse but my father was never abusive to us kids, my mom would have beat him senseless.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3254906
It's on page 2.....I missed it the first time too...LOL...I re-read the whole thing after a comment that Cran made
I don't believe that is mentioning a prior, especially since a minor's record is sealed I believe. I think that's just poor wording saying the charges on the girl were already filed before they made the arrest announcement.
He is the story reported elsewhere
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...-.html?sid=101
"The teen has been charged with aggravated sexual assault, promoting prostitution and other crimes. Her name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult."
http:///forum/post/3254906
It's on page 2.....I missed it the first time too...LOL...I re-read the whole thing after a comment that Cran made
I don't believe that is mentioning a prior, especially since a minor's record is sealed I believe. I think that's just poor wording saying the charges on the girl were already filed before they made the arrest announcement.
He is the story reported elsewhere
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...-.html?sid=101
"The teen has been charged with aggravated sexual assault, promoting prostitution and other crimes. Her name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult."
ibanez
Member
It is always easy to sit back and condemn, judge, and voice our opinions about things we see on tv or read on the internet, but you never really know the whole story. I guess that is why we should all just mind our own business a bit more and let the proper authorities handle things. I am so tired of the news anyways, they aren't a service, they are a money hungry propaganda machine. They are heartless ratingswhores. Anything to get you to watch. The government allows it because fear sells.
meowzer
Moderator
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3254921
I don't believe that is mentioning a prior, especially since a minor's record is sealed I believe. I think that's just poor wording saying the charges on the girl were already filed before they made the arrest announcement.
He is the story reported elsewhere
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...-.html?sid=101
"The teen has been charged with aggravated sexual assault, promoting prostitution and other crimes. Her name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult."
hmmmmmm.....Boy they really need to re-word that then...very misleading
http:///forum/post/3254921
I don't believe that is mentioning a prior, especially since a minor's record is sealed I believe. I think that's just poor wording saying the charges on the girl were already filed before they made the arrest announcement.
He is the story reported elsewhere
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content...-.html?sid=101
"The teen has been charged with aggravated sexual assault, promoting prostitution and other crimes. Her name was not released because of her age, but the county prosecutor plans to ask the court to try her as an adult."
hmmmmmm.....Boy they really need to re-word that then...very misleading
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3254924
hmmmmmm.....Boy they really need to re-word that then...very misleading
Yep, not a lot of reporting on this either so it's hard to say but if they don't even know the 15 year old's name I don't see how they would know about any priors. Dunno but that's how I read it.
http:///forum/post/3254924
hmmmmmm.....Boy they really need to re-word that then...very misleading
Yep, not a lot of reporting on this either so it's hard to say but if they don't even know the 15 year old's name I don't see how they would know about any priors. Dunno but that's how I read it.
meowzer
Moderator
You know I re-read it again.....it clearly says BEFORE Saturdays arrest the 15 year old HAD BEEN charged....
That really makes me thinkg she was arrested before
also it says the police have not realeased her name, not that they don;t know it
and I could not open that other link you posted
That really makes me thinkg she was arrested before
also it says the police have not realeased her name, not that they don;t know it
and I could not open that other link you posted
S
shrimpy brains
Guest
Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3254762
I expected that type of answer from you. Abuse and sexual abuse from parents, step parents, or from anybody seems to be the factors that contribute to the way the child acts throughout his/her life. Like it or not, it is FACT. Great trauma causes chemical inbalances and lobes of the brain to act differently. Tumors cause a small factor in this also.
Doctors are right now doing studies on brain patterns to try to understand at younger ages the difference between a brain of an abused (sexual or physical) child and a child that is not abused. There is a significant difference in the lobes of the brain.
People who don't understand things like science and the medical field usually say "The only study that needs to me made is how many blows to the head with a baseball bat it takes to crack their skulls like a walnut." is not the answer to the problem. First of all, how mature. Secondly, if the medical field can narrow down and start seeing unusual brain waves and patterns acts like this may be prevented before they happen.
I'm sorry, but I don't follow this logic. If the kids who are abused develop chemicals in the brain, and lobes of the brain that act differentally, then how do you account for all the abused children who don't repeat the cycle? There are many!
We are not complete victims of circumstance. Yes, any situation in our life can cause trauma or emotional problems, but we still make our own choices.
There are many abused children who protect their siblings from this same abuse. Many grow up and make careers out of stopping further abuse.
There are some that develop drug/alcohol problems and other ways to escape reality.
And, unfortunately, there are those that continue the cycle of abuse.
Also, there are people who have had wonderful lives, and yet they become abusive.
My point is, we are not robots. There is no given scenario that states, if this happens to you, you will later do this. We are people with different emotions and outlooks.
At the end of the day, the only truth is:
We all still make our choices and are responsible for the effects of those choices!
cranberry
Active Member
Originally Posted by Shrimpy Brains
http:///forum/post/3254931
We are not complete victims of circumstance.
And that sums everything up.
However, I have to take in to account that it is a child and they are not always of rationale thoughts in the first place.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by meowzer
http:///forum/post/3254930
You know I re-read it again.....it clearly says BEFORE Saturdays arrest the 15 year old HAD BEEN charged....
That really makes me thinkg she was arrested before
also it says the police have not realeased her name, not that they don;t know it
and I could not open that other link you posted
You left out a very important word in your quote, ANNOUNCEMENT. Before Saturday's arrest announcement....
Here's a new link
http://www.bloggernews.net/124195
http:///forum/post/3254930
You know I re-read it again.....it clearly says BEFORE Saturdays arrest the 15 year old HAD BEEN charged....
That really makes me thinkg she was arrested before
also it says the police have not realeased her name, not that they don;t know it
and I could not open that other link you posted
You left out a very important word in your quote, ANNOUNCEMENT. Before Saturday's arrest announcement....
Here's a new link
http://www.bloggernews.net/124195
S
shrimpy brains
Guest
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3254936
And that sums everything up.
However, I have to take in to account that it is a child and they are not always of rationale thoughts in the first place.
I am not deciding one way or another on the case.(I'll leave that to the proper authorities) I am merely stating that having been abused does not justify the actions of any involved. You can't pretty it up by calling it emotional problems or brain imbalance.
http:///forum/post/3254936
And that sums everything up.
However, I have to take in to account that it is a child and they are not always of rationale thoughts in the first place.
I am not deciding one way or another on the case.(I'll leave that to the proper authorities) I am merely stating that having been abused does not justify the actions of any involved. You can't pretty it up by calling it emotional problems or brain imbalance.
ibanez
Member
It doesn't pretty anything up, what you have to realize is, you can treat the symptoms, or you can treat the symptoms and the cause. If you ignore the cause and only treat the symptoms, at the end of the day, your still sick. One way or another, the teenager is a victim. She still needs to be punished for her actions, and even if she was sentenced to death, she would still be a victim of something which we may never know. We are all victims of the devil and sin passed on to us by adam and eve. I am not giving an excuse for what the girl did, but if you don't look at the things in society that cause these kind of problems, at the end of the day you still have the problem of more and more younger children commiting more and more terrible acts.
Also, with abuse, If one abuser abuses 25 people, those 25 people suffer and because of that 100 people become affected and suffer and are scarred by those 25 people and the cycle continues. If you stop the abuser from abusing 5 people, then only 80 people become affected. Do you follow the logic?
Also, with abuse, If one abuser abuses 25 people, those 25 people suffer and because of that 100 people become affected and suffer and are scarred by those 25 people and the cycle continues. If you stop the abuser from abusing 5 people, then only 80 people become affected. Do you follow the logic?
S
shrimpy brains
Guest
Originally Posted by IbanEz
http:///forum/post/3254946
It doesn't pretty anything up, what you have to realize is, you can treat the symptoms, or you can treat the symptoms and the cause. If you ignore the cause and only treat the symptoms, at the end of the day, your still sick. One way or another, the teenager is a victim. She still needs to be punished for her actions, and even if she was sentenced to death, she would still be a victim of something which we may never know. We are all victims of the devil and sin passed on to us by adam and eve. I am not giving an excuse for what the girl did, but if you don't look at the things in society that cause these kind of problems, at the end of the day you still have the problem of more and more younger children commiting more and more terrible acts.
Also, with abuse, If one abuser abuses 25 people, those 25 people suffer and because of that 100 people become affected and suffer and are scarred by those 25 people and the cycle continues. If you stop the abuser from abusing 5 people, then only 80 people become affected. Do you follow the logic?
And I am saying that the 25 abused people will not automatically become abusers!! The arguement above was that abuse causes a 'malfunction" of some sort in our brains that makes us prone to be abusive.
My arguement is merely that, there are many people who prove this statement wrong! Many people are beat, molested, etc. and would never want it to happen to anyone else, much less be the cause of continued scarring, damage, hurt!
Therefore, the fact that you have had "childhood trauma" does not justify continueing the cycle!