NEED TO VENT part TWO

socal57che

Active Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3214700
My only wish is that i am not "Preaching to the choir" here.
BTW I don't even know what Preaching to the choir means but i always wanted to say it
I think that refers to the choir already being at church, I.E., not the ones that need the preaching.
 

mony97

Member
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3214700
My only wish is that i am not "Preaching to the choir" here.
BTW I don't even know what Preaching to the choir means but i always wanted to say it
Thats awesome, haha
And +1 to the poster who said they would not have come back with out the people that are primarily posting on this thread. I agree and am forever in your debt for the knowledge you have given me, and also the opportunity to have a healthy SWT, we will continue to see how this adventure goes, and I'm sure I will be around.
Thanks again to all that have helped, you guys are the ones that give the best chances to not only the people in this hobby but also the beautiful fish we keep.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
When it comes to this hobby and my dad,I just have to shake my head and walk away in disbelief sometimes.
I gave up trying to tell him the right way to do things. Hes just gonna have to fall flat on his face i guess. Too much pride to listen to his son.
The other day was a massive blow up over the skimmer. He has it submerged. Thats right, completely 100% under water, collection cup and all. A screaming match ensured when I walked in and pointed out "Your skimmer is set up wrong"
This needs to be above the surface or it wont work.I just had to walk away while he kept on about me being a know it all.
Even after going online and pointing out pictures and posts from other reefers....its still under water.
Today he brought home two damsels and a Coral banded shrimp. That's his way of cycling because the LFS guy knows more than me evidently.
Fine. He can have fun with two nightmares in the tank who have already proven to pick on the poor shrimp. One stole some food right from his claws. The larger has already torn up the tail fin of the smaller. I decided to just sit on the sidelines. And watch the circus.
Thats my rant ^_^
So much for father son bonding. Hes in his 70's so its too late to change things I guess.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
LOL, king my dad and i go round and round about the same stuff. e doesnt beleive in the cycle. just dump te fish in and let em buck. " never had a problem before and i test all te time" so i asked him what his tests were and he said normal. ammonia was .5 nitirites were high and so were his trates. i was like, thats normal? poor fish
 
Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3214490
I sent Joe a PM the other day saying something to the effect of it gets tiring answering questions over and over. But I guess I will continue to do just that and continue to try to point people to literature both on the web and in book form to help them to increase their knowledge.
The real thing that bums me out is the person that comes on asks a question and gets information and experiences from multiple people that may not be what the person wants to hear. And that person continues to ask the question, or argue with the results, until someone comes on and gives the answer wanted. Or goes ahead and does what has been advised against, then comes back when it doesn't work out and asks for help to fix the problem caused.
My rant.
Spanko, I could understand where you are coming from. I am in no way implying that I have even a percentage of the knowledge that you or bang or joe or renee or meowzr or nissan have. I do see where the same questions are ask over and over again.
On the other hand, you should know that slowly you are teaching others and hopefully soon, we will be able to answer the fundamental questions and you'll be left with stuff that actually takes thought.
Originally Posted by Jstdv8

http:///forum/post/3214631
Well, to play devils advocate:
I probably wouldnt have come back to this site if it hadnt been for flower, meozer, SCCI (or however those leters go), spanko, cranberry, bang guy and a bunch of others that helped me with my easy questions to help me get started.
BTW, thank you all for being so helpful for the last 4 months
+10
 

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by FirefightrEMTP
http:///forum/post/3214914
Spanko, .......On the other hand, you should know that slowly you are teaching others and hopefully soon, we will be able to answer the fundamental questions and you'll be left with stuff that actually takes thought.
Thank you for the compliment. There are always people that need help. I for the most part can't help myself from answering. There are days though when I say to myself "you are addicted, this is getting old, get some help"! Again we were all "noobs" at some point and had to learn. I like to read, some don't and that is okay.
The people looking for the answer they want to hear rather than the "accepted norm" answer are the ones that really get me going!!!!
Oh well, this too shall pass.
 
If I can make a suggestion, I think that this will help.
On a medical forum that I am on, the people who have been on the forum for a while will really push the use of the search tab. Every time a NOOB came on and ask the same redundant question, whoever felt the need to answer usually replied with search i.e. "High Nitrates" or whatever.... I honestly knew from the beginning of being on the forum that I better search before I ask, which I don't think is stressed that highly here.
Just my 2 cents, but I think it could help.
~grace
 

xcali1985

Active Member
Originally Posted by FirefightrEMTP
http:///forum/post/3214958
If I can make a suggestion, I think that this will help.
On a medical forum that I am on, the people who have been on the forum for a while will really push the use of the search tab. Every time a NOOB came on and ask the same redundant question, whoever felt the need to answer usually replied with search i.e. "High Nitrates" or whatever.... I honestly knew from the beginning of being on the forum that I better search before I ask, which I don't think is stressed that highly here.
Just my 2 cents, but I think it could help.
~grace
The only fear that I have with "use the search" replies like SO SO many other forums use is that most of the current and a lot of the new hobbyist panic when they see something wrong with their tank and will seek a first response first act type of answer. I visit a lot of tech forums who use the "use the search" phrase a lot and for a noob it can be very frustrating, although usually to fix a tech problem and medical problems the methods are standard.
With our tanks everything is different, for instance I for some odd reason can keep green star polyps, everything else lives, they die, why? no one can tell me. Because each tank is different, each setup is different, using a search in this type of environment won't help much in problem solving.
Instead maybe a Sticky forum with other useful threads for instance "The Dreaded Diatom Bloom" thread. Where someone has taken the time to initiate a detailed discussion on something and then an intelligent follow up was commenced.
You would tell someone with a FOWLR, No Skimmer, or Sump a completely different way of handling a situation than a person with a full Reef and all the gadgets. Sending someone on a wild goose chase to "find" a tank similar to his and similar problem is nearly impossible, and would lead to even more panic.
I do think that there should be a rule if you have a issue you need to list relevant tank parameters. Size, lbs of LR, Substrate, CUC, Sump, Fuge size, Life of the tank, life in the tank, corals, when problem started, pictures if possible etc.
Posts that have "How do I get rid of this algae" and never list anything else is annoying and leads to the next 10 posts (that would be read by a searcher) being questions back to the original poster instead of solutions.
End of Rant.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3214608
Can I have my list back please, Mods? I put all my books away again.

Of the books I own, these are the ones I recommend.
Invert Info: Reef Invertebrates: An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibility. By Fenner and Calfo.
Invert info - Car companion for the LFS: A PocketExpert Guide to Marine Invertebrates: 500+ Essential-to-Know Aquarium Species. By Ron Shimek.
Fish information: Reef Fishes Volume 1-5. By Scott Michaels.
Fish Info - Car companion for the LFS: A PocketExpert Guide to Marine Fishes: 500+ Essential-To-Know Aquarium Species. By Scott Michaels.
General Fish Health and Disease: The Marine Fish Health & Feeding Handbook: The Essential Guide to Keeping Saltwater Species Alive and Thriving. By Goemans and Ichinotsubo. and/or The Conscientious Marine Aquarist: A Commonsense Handbook for Successful Saltwater Hobbyists. By Fenner
General Aquarium Book: Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques: Guide to Successful Professional Marine Aquarium Systems. By Jay Hemdal.
Water Chemistry: Marine Chemistry. By Christopher Brightwell.
Culturing Tips: The Complete Illustrated Breeder's Guide to Marine Aquarium Fishes. By Whittenrich. and Plankton Culture Manual. By Hoff and Snell.
Coral Propagation and Care: Book of Coral Propagation, Volume 1 Edition 2: Reef Gardening for Aquarists. By Calfo.
Fish ID: Dr. Burgess's Atlas of Marine Aquarium Fishes. By Burgess.
Fish Disease: Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. By Noga. and/or Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish. By Bassler.
Tank organization and Logging: Aquarium Journals, Marine Edition.
Up-to-Date Articles: Coral Magazine.
ÞÞÞ
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
To state my feelings another way let me just say. I think saltwater aquarium message boards and this one in particular are a great asset to the hobby. There is however IMO a downside. Information on singular problems is a little to easy to get. It seems to me that there are more and more hobbyists that look at pictures of or see tanks in LFS and think "wow I want that". They buy a set up without doing any research knowing there are sites like this one where they can run if they have a problem. They get an answer on this site to a fundamental problem with out IMO getting any fundamental education. They move along until they encounter the next problem, then off to the PC for an answer. They fix that situation and on it goes. I understand there is always gong to be trial and error in this hobby but to get into a hobby such as this without committing yourself to laying a good foundation on your own IMO makes for a hobbyist more interested in a quick fix rather then one who understands the reasons for and remedy's of the most elementary situations a novice will encounter.
 

flower

Well-Known Member

I read and studied for years before diving in...I was so afraid it was too hard to go saltwater. To be honest, all my reading did very little when it came to hands on.
Of course I did do freshwater fish for 30+ years, so I did have the "fundamentals" down...water testing, fish compatibility, and proper acclimation. However equipment and corals was a whole new thing in comparison.
I think the young folks on this site with the "Chutsbah" (nerve) to dive in and go as they learn, asking questions and O the web and the ability to Google info...Hats off to you. I wish I had started young. I can’t imagine anyone who loves something, or has an interest in something ,that they don’t try and get every bit of info they can find. Be it from this site, a book, or Googled on the web. Everyone learns at their own pace and in their own way.
I have seen some, few really, that need a book to read before they start. Most of them are adults who got a tank from someone with no real desire or love for fish keeping. The guy who tried to use a lobster tank he got from a grocery store comes to mind. He figured he was all set and nothing anyone tried to tell him stuck in his head. Now that I think of it..a book wouldn’t have helped him either.
 

btldreef

Moderator
Although I get tired of answering the same boring questions that pop up daily and have ranted about it in the past, I was once that person.
When I first started in the hobby, if I had an issue, I'd look up online and ask the LFS. The LFS would constantly give me different information than I would find on the boards (I wasn't a member and would just read others posts). When I asked the LFS why his answers were always different than what I found in numerous sources on the internet, his answer was, "Get off the internet or stop being my customer." I will never forget that day.
A little background, I was unsure about getting a saltwater tank and doing a reef. My husband had setup tanks for years as a living, and kept fish only setups, but didn't understand the maintenance involved (at least not at an advanced level). The guy at the LFS assured us that with his help anyone could keep a tank, so we dove in.
So there I was, left with a saltwater reef that had been set up by this man and he fed me to the lions. I researched and researched and researched some more, but never joined the forum to ask a question because I saw how "common questions from newbies" were answered on forums.
It's tough. People have no idea what they're getting into with this hobby, but most people have no idea what they're getting into with any hobby. I mean, look how many irresponsible dog owners there are out there.
We live in a society where even in a bad economy, we buy whatever we want to satisfy our desire at the moment. Sometimes, that's a fish tank. The LFS just wants to make a sale and doesn't care whether you know what you're doing or not. People buy a tank, unknowingly and then 3 weeks in go, "Oh, sh*t, what did I just get myself into." That's where this board is great.
I've found over time that no two tanks are ever the same and that those common questions sometimes need uncommon answers. My feeling is, if you are tired of answering, don't. Stick to the more advanced stuff. No one is holding a gun to your head demanding that you answer every question, someone else most surely will. If you disagree with the answer given, say so. There is no absolute in this hobby. I mean, right now, Joe and I disagree in a thread and we've both given our opinions and left it up to the OP to decide how he wants to handle the situation.
I do agree that some people just want to be spoon fed an answer, and I feel sorry for those people and the fish they will most likely kill. I yelled at a kid (Skate0200 or something like that) for awhile about what he was doing wrong, he fought me tooth and nail, his tank crashed, he came back begging for help. It was a huge learning experience for him, but he's come a long way and now takes in what everyone has to say and researches a lot. I guess that's just what it takes for some people.
In all fairness Joe, sometimes you are a little harsh on the noobs (and I have been too at some times). I get that you are annoyed, but why not just not comment at all? %%
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I think the young folks on this site with the "Chutsbah" (nerve) to dive in and go as they learn, asking questions and O the web and the ability to Google info...Hats off to you
I think the go as you learn if that is what you really mean apposed to learn as you go, is my point exactly. Learn first and then move on NOT make a fundamental mistake then just look for a quick fix
In all fairness Joe, sometimes you are a little harsh on the noobs (and I have been too at some times). I get that you are annoyed, but why not just not comment at all?
Perhaps you are right. Turning a blind eye may in fact be the answer.
BTW just out of curiosity how many noobs do you think have taken the time to read the great threads aimed specifically for them in the new hobbyist section
 

spanko

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3215045
It's between ØØØ and æææ
ÞÞÞ
That That That.
Cool beans! Back to your old English roots Bang?
While looking it up also found the <alt> key sequences to insert the characters.
Bang, if I may, what in the world do you do for a living that this would come to your mind for a posting in a thread??????
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Perhaps you are right. Turning a blind eye may in fact be the answer.
Ok I am gong to take that back. I mean we are talking about living things that we have chosen to take on the responsibility to keep alive. IMO if my being harsh makes for a more informed hobbyist and that hobbyist has a better chance at keeping his live stock just that alive then I can justify my harshness to myself
 

meowzer

Moderator

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3215048
I think the go as you learn if that is what you really mean apposed to learn as you go, is my point exactly. Learn first and then move on NOT make a fundamental mistake then just look for a quick fixPerhaps you are right. Turning a blind eye may in fact be the answer.
BTW just out of curiosity how many noobs do you think have taken the time to read the great threads aimed specifically for them in the new hobbyist section


I read them in the beginning.....I still go back sometimes...BUT I also like the "personal" interaction. Reading a line in a book is not always the same, and you can not ask for further detail....
I have read 1000's upon 1000's of threads here....most have, or had nothing to do with anything I had at the time, BUT when something came up, I didn't panic cause I had read it previously on some random thread...
I also have receive MUCH help from a lot of you....(Joe, Henry, etc...etc..) and w/o your personal guidance....IDK what I would have done
so thank you ...caue you know there will be more questions from me
 

btldreef

Moderator
Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3215048
I think the go as you learn if that is what you really mean apposed to learn as you go, is my point exactly. Learn first and then move on NOT make a fundamental mistake then just look for a quick fixPerhaps you are right. Turning a blind eye may in fact be the answer.
BTW just out of curiosity how many noobs do you think have taken the time to read the great threads aimed specifically for them in the new hobbyist section

Originally Posted by florida joe

http:///forum/post/3215058
Ok I am gong to take that back. I mean we are talking about living things that we have chosen to take on the responsibility to keep alive. IMO if my being harsh makes for a more informed hobbyist and that hobbyist has a better chance at keeping his live stock just that alive then I can justify my harshness to myself
This is exactly where my dilemma is. Sometimes I'm so frustrated, but there's lives at stake, even if they're "only fish."
 

garick

Member
I think it just depends on the person.
If you are aggressive with the person or harsh. They may simply become defensive and leave, then do whatever suits them. Which means their tank will probably fail. However some may take it as positive criticism and make the adjustments.
Personally I think its a 50/50 damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 
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