Reply to Shoreliner again/Evolution/Creation debate :)

shawnts106

Member
LOL, yes the THREAD HAS EVOLVED, that is Observable, testable, repeatable evidence! LOL!!!!!!
as far as the cookies and ice-cream goes, My personal favorite is the CookieDough IceCream!
Cookie dough IceCream evolved from Vanilla IceCream that mistakenly got a new strand of prebaked Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough in it.... a hybrid of the late Milkeous Dougheous and Vanilia Fragrans species.
very interesting LOL
 

scotts

Active Member
You know I am embarrassed to be associated with such a close minded group of people. I have not seen one word in this entire discussion about cream pies, Bananna cream is particularly good, although most places use too much actual bananas, more of that cream stuff. Although a good cheescake is good also, not the chocolate chip peanut butter cheesecake, just pure cheesecake. Then there is the old stand by of hot apple pie with ice cream......OK I am so confused and I have no idea what I believe in now.
 

spanky

Member
I think Shawn had the right idea. This whole pie thing needed some airing out. I think we've pretty well got the subject covered. Great group effort!
Thanks Shawn.
 

spanky

Member
Hey gang, what does "LOL" in the middle of a sentence mean? I see it on this forum all the time...it doesn't seem to be necessary to understanding the content...but I don't get it.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by shawnts106
if this is true then why do 2 of our 8 planets spin backwards and why does one spin on its side?... according to the law of Angular Momentum then if the BIG BANG theory was true then the planets could NOT spin backwards much less on there sides, you see if an object is spinning in certain direction (which ussually is normal lol) and that object releases debris the debris always spins in the same direction as the original object....
So if I spin a basketball clockwise there is no force in the universe that can ever make it spin in the opposite direction?
 

somguynco

New Member
Originally Posted by shawnts106
In turkey, were the ark is supposed to be there have been sightings by people durring certain parts of the year (unseasonably warm winters) were they have claimed to see a giant BOAT in the side of the mountain! This alone should be proof enough!
Just FYI, because someone claims something, doesn't make it proof.
And question... so the ark "crashes", hits land, whatever in a mountainous region of Turkey. Why don't we find every species living in the region? How did the polar bears, penguins, giraffes, etc, all get "home"?
I don't think Noah's Ark is a good argument to make as proof, as the whole story is ridiculous.
A link to read: http://skepdic.com/noahsark.html
 

whaler

New Member
LOL means laugh out loud? :notsure: I thought maybe it was the written equivalent of "um" or some other non-communicative filler. Some folks use it with the frequency of punctuation - or even more.
It doesn't make much sense to me LOL but I'll try to get the hang of it LOL and blend in with the locals LOL.
Nope, I can't do it. I'll just stick to English; that's enough of a challenge for me... :yes: Oh, and I'll keep trying these cool little face-things.
On the evolution/creation front, those of you who are seriously interested in the intellectual debate might want to read "Darwin's Black Box" and "Adam and Evolution". The latter is written to people with a substantial amount of education in Molecular Biology, but the former is far game for anybody.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Originally Posted by shawnts106
in order for evolution to happen NEW INFORMATION must be added into DNA, when a mutation occurs, such as a person growing another arm or such this is a LOSS of Genetic Information not a gain, and plus evolution states that we are getting better and that TRILLIONS of mutations causes evolution, Mutations are bad there is No one good mutation!
I hate to through a wrench into the Evolutionists beliefs but most evolutionists DONT EVEN know there own theory... they just have been taught to believe that we came from apes.
:)

OH MY GOSH, you need to do some serious reading and teaching yourself. Serious. I almost fell out of my chair...I can say "creationist know so little about the evolutionary theory they have just been taught to just say we didn't evolve from apes." You just proved it. Know your enemy. Really Shawtns, you are not winning arguments with this. You need some serious research...here I am, an evolutionary biologist, telling you that you can make a better case for creationism than you are doing. This is really pretty poor. :notsure: :nope:
BTW, there is a mistaken interpretation of evolution called an "evolutionary ladder" that implies things are getting "better" and that humans are at the top. This is not how evolutionary biologists think. I personally believe in the divine nature of man...but we would be in deep trouble should we suddenly be transported to the deep ocean. Things adapt to an environment, but that same adaptation could be fatal should the environment change. I could easily say the mutations that lead to a plant or animal being able to survive in a certain environment are beneficial. But I believe in adaptive radiation. You don't believe in these changes and so you believe they are all bad. But simply trying to explain things through the veil of your beliefs does not prove them wrong. You can't just say they are bad and make it so! But you are being consistent in your beliefs.
You should stick to defending creationism, and not trying to disprove evolution. The argument is not at all persuasive. Anyone going to the grocery store to pick up some veggies or fruit will see there have been beneficial mutations in plants. Also in the bakery section, as I think the whole "snack cake" line, including twinkies, and little debbie, is a clear, and certainly GOOD mutation of the home baked versions.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Don't bother Ophiura.
A mind is like a parachute. It only works when it's open. Shawn is falling through space at the moment and needs to decide if he would like to open his eyes or hit the ground.
 

gwiley

Member
i just have one question...well really two now that i think about it..
. how long (if evolution is real) did it take for mankind to reach the top...and with that why have apes not continue to evolve with us, being able to walk upright and converse in a common language?
 

farmboy

Active Member
Gwiley,
Apes can!! Have you not seen planet of the apes?? They can do all kinds of stuff in that movie.
Ophiura-I think hybrid plants and adaptation are more support for creation than evolution.
There were so many KINDs created (example dogs), then came adaptation or microevolution in a latteral way to allow them to exist in a variety of conditions(example-birds with longer beaks).
I heard a report once about a guy who hated rattlers. He hunted them to the point where one could scarcely find a noisey rattlesnake in his area of the southwest. Did they evolve? or did the "squeaky wheel get greased" and the snakes with smaller rattles continue to thrive? The latter proved true in this case.
 

ophiura

Active Member
The question I have is are you interested in an answer, or are you just trying to throw the proverbial "oh yeah, well answer THIS one..." :D So it is possible you are interested, or it is possible you won't care for an answer...or more properly a perspective/opinion :) :thinking:
Man, I really wanted to stay with the dessert thing.....much more productive. :yes:
And I am thinking...."listen to Bang Guy, listen to Bang Guy...."
Anyway, here it goes. I'm going to regret this :mad: but here it goes.
Mankind is not at the top, nor have apes failed to continue to evolve. Again, there is no "evolutionary ladder." We did not evolve from apes, according to evolutionary theory (COMMONLY misunderstood and misrepresented) we shared a common ancestor. Apes adapted to certain environments, and continue to adapt (perhaps not fast enough to avoid extinction), Homo sp. adapted to others. We have, incidentally, learned in recent years of startling primate behavior (learning, tools, warfare) that we had previously limited to our own species.
Perhaps due to a superior brain capacity or some unknown (here one could make the case for a Divine nature of man eg that God set us apart from other animals...certainly true staunch evolutionists would not go for this but I do)....we were able to adapt rapidly to various environments. We succeeded via use of tools and hunting, formed societies and cultures, developed (across nearly all cultures) a sense of an Omnipotent Creator.
But you are using the idea that humans are the "ultimate" in evolution to state that walking upright and conversing in a common language (do humans converse in a common language?) is superior to other modes of locomotion or communication. For what we may be meant to do, OK, sure it is. You may say "ah, but we have words and they just have grunts and things, but I challenge you to study anthropology, and particularly various tribal peoples of the Amazon and Africa who use "language" far different from ours. Humans would be very poorly adapted to life in water both in terms of locomotion, or communication. Because of our intellect - we have been able, unlike other animals, to "adapt" to various environs through technological advances rather than natural selection.
So that is how I see things...I don't expect, as stated before, to change any minds. Please believe what you wish :yes: and don't attack me for my beliefs either :)
Farmboy - I appreciate your perspective. I don't know, perhaps we are all not that far off the same page. I think we may be in the same chapter or at least book or if you would prefer more distance....uh, library? Like a big public one, or the library of congress?? :D :)
 

shawnts106

Member
WOW, more " you dont know what your talking about" arguments but no facts to back the statement up! ! ok, anyway! :rolleyes:
So if I spin a basketball clockwise there is no force in the universe that can ever make it spin in the opposite direction?
Spinning BasketBalls and Planets are very different if you didnt know bang... first, things arent flying off of the basketball, second the basketball is already within a gravitational field and is already being acted upon by natural laws, the BIGBANG theory is where it "supposably" all got started and this is where the natural laws began... see my point?
And question... so the ark "crashes", hits land, whatever in a mountainous region of Turkey. Why don't we find every species living in the region? How did the polar bears, penguins, giraffes, etc, all get "home"?

Why dont we find every species living in the region? simple adaption, they moved to a more welcoming area of the world VIA the Land Bridge.
They got home as the land bridges reappeared and then adapted to their environments, if you drop the ocean water level just a few hundred feet you see massive land bridges!... now because of polar melting and such the land bridges have been emmersed again.
I almost fell out of my chair...I can say "creationist know so little about the evolutionary theory they have just been taught to just say we didn't evolve from apes." You just proved it. Know your enemy. Really Shawtns, you are not winning arguments with this. You need some serious research...here I am, an evolutionary biologist, telling you that you can make a better case for creationism than you are doing. This is really pretty poor.
Ok, so we as humans didnt evolve from "apes", so we evolved from Ape Like Humaniods?... you explain mr evolutionary biologist.
I am not trying to "win" any arguments, just putting truth out there for people to read.... Im not in a "argument war" with evolutionists but I do ASK that they stop telling their false theorys and teaching their religions as if they were facts :)
I could easily say the mutations that lead to a plant or animal being able to survive in a certain environment are beneficial. But I believe in adaptive radiation. You don't believe in these changes and so you believe they are all bad. But simply trying to explain things through the veil of your beliefs does not prove them wrong. You can't just say they are bad and make it so! But you are being consistent in your beliefs.

Adaption is not evolution... its where an organism becomes more able to live in the environment it is living in.... it doesnt turn into another animal... just gets better at living where it is... I suppose that this would be a good mutation, but it still doesnt change a bird into a fish.
Please explain more about Adaptive Radiation... I am not familiar with this terminology..... I do believe in adaption, it is true SCIENCE, not religion and it is OBSERVABLE, TESTABLE, REPEATABLE evidence.
 

shawnts106

Member
You should stick to defending creationism, and not trying to disprove evolution. The argument is not at all persuasive. Anyone going to the grocery store to pick up some veggies or fruit will see there have been beneficial mutations in plants.
Um, defending creationism means disproveing all other false doctorines, aka EVOLUTIONISM :)
The beneficial mutations you are referring to, are they mutations such as seedless grapes or watermelons?... or different colored fruits, more tasty?... EITHER WAY, the fruit is still a pear, watermelon, grape or apple, none of them are turning into dogs or oak trees .... so your point is what now? BTW: seedless watermelons and grapes are man made, they didnt naturally mutate.
Shawn is falling through space at the moment and needs to decide if he would like to open his eyes or hit the ground.
See bang, the good thing about it is when I hit the ground I know im going to Heaven, and Ill live in peace and harmony for the rest of eturnity, so really it doesnt matter if I open my eyes to see when Im going to go SPLAT or not :) HAA! :D
. how long (if evolution is real) did it take for mankind to reach the top...and with that why have apes not continue to evolve with us, being able to walk upright and converse in a common language?
EU, EU, I can answer this one!!!... ok, first youll get an answer varring within 5 to 15 millions years, *COUGH!*, and the second question, Because apes were never human and never will be human or some other advanced form of life for that matter :) I believe they can talk to themselves through a very intersting form of body language and possible verbal or mental, but they are far from building rocketships or teaching their children how to properly propagate Acropora Colonys :) hehehe
Ophiura-I think hybrid plants and adaptation are more support for creation than evolution.
Agreed:)
But you are using the idea that humans are the "ultimate" in evolution to state that walking upright and conversing in a common language (do humans converse in a common language?) is superior to other modes of locomotion or communication.
But seriously, was anyone thinking that?... seriously?
Mankind is not at the top, nor have apes failed to continue to evolve. Again, there is no "evolutionary ladder." We did not evolve from apes, according to evolutionary theory (COMMONLY misunderstood and misrepresented) we shared a common ancestor.
Ok so your saying that mankind is NOT at the top, but the textbooks of students are teaching them this?.... ok! If we didnt evolve from apes what did we evolve from? what common ancestor did we come from?... where is the fossil evidence, or is this a missing link... BTW: MOST MISSING LINKS ARE MISSING FOR GOOD REASONS! HA
As far as pies go, I think that if cheesecakes evolve anymore they would evolve into a more digestable fruit based pie, or maybe they already have!... strawberry cheesecake?
hum?
 

molamola

Member
This is my take on Genesis from a pure literary perspective, as I am not a scientist. I'm not trying to bring any sheep to the fold, just offering a different, non-scientific viewpoint.
In the first chapter, God creates beasts of the water, sky, and land, and then he creates man. In the second chapter, he creates a beautiful garden, forms Adam out of dirt, breaths life into him, and then creates beasts of the water, sky, and land to be his companion. So, which came first, beasts or man? This is not an anti-Christian question, as I am Christian myself, but when one book presents two different accounts of one story, it doesn't stand up well against the arguments presented by well read and well educated biologists, in my opinion.
This is not to say that truth cannot be found in the book of Genesis. Yes, the message of the Book of Genesis is quite important and it explained to a group of people in simplified terms that we all can understand their origin and purpose, and who was responsible for it all. This is the point of the first two chapters of Genesis in my opinion. Genesis introduces the reader to God. Whether God used evolution or just dropped the Earth and all of its contents into the universe in seven days is not the point. The important thing to recognize is the force behind it all.
shawnts106 said:
See bang, the good thing about it is when I hit the ground I know im going to Heaven, and Ill live in peace and harmony for the rest of eturnity, so really it doesnt matter if I open my eyes to see when Im going to go SPLAT or not :) HAA! :D/QUOTE]
I don't think that taking the book of Genesis literally gets a person into Heaven. I also think the main focus of Christianity is lost in these arguments, as a person believing in evolution can still be a Christian. It is a matter of interpretation. If you believe in God, you're supposed to also believe that God has a plan for all of us and he makes himself available to all of us. Also believe that people are capable of seeking truth, understanding, and ultimately finding faith on their own. It is the responsibility of the individual, as a relationship with God is personal.
I grew up non-denominational and a few years ago became Roman Catholic. I've been to a lot of churches and met a lot of people on the way and never once have they asked me what my take was on the whole creation vs. evolution thing. There were more important things to focus on. Additionally, when I was going through the process of becoming Catholic, one of my dearest friends (an evolutionary biologist) provided a lot of support and insight, and had she been able to get the time off required to attend all of the classes with me, she would have been my Godmother when I was baptized. Instead, she was there in the congregation and I was quite grateful to know that.
Again, not trying to preach, or offend anyone. I'm a 100% rightbrained thinker and I wanted to throw in my interpretation. I think it is great to be passionate about religion and want to share that passion, but it is important to keep an open mind and accept that we're not all the same and we are entitled to have a different opinion. If you made it this far without falling asleep, I commend you. I'm longwinded (and asthmatic ironically).
Back to deserts, today I attended a wedding and witnessed something spectacular. I saw a large cake, apparently dividing into smaller cakes. I believe it was called a wedding cake and each time it split, it became smaller and smaller, forming some sort of a tower. It was quite complex. Could someone please explain? :confused:
 

spanky

Member
Adaption is not evolution... its where an organism becomes more able to live in the environment it is living in.... it doesnt turn into another animal... just gets better at living where it is... I suppose that this would be a good mutation, but it still doesnt change a bird into a fish
Shawn, first, the word is "adaptation" , not "adaption"...and you "throw" a ball, not "through" it...and it's eternity, not "eturnity".
..and the above statement "adapt[at]ion is not evolution" is incorrect. Take a glance at the word "evolution" in a dictionary.
A species may "evolve" - meaning change over time.The resulting change may well provide a means of adapting to a particular environmental pressure. On the other hand, sometimes a change is "neutral" - that is it confers neither advantage nor disadvantage. In either case a change over generations IS evolution...micro-evolution to be more precise.
Next, Chimps, Gorillas, and Orang-utans are pongids. Humans are "hominids". Hominoids include both pongids and hominids. It is within the super-family Hominoidea that evolutionists look for a "common link" between man and ape. Evolutionists do not believe that we "came from" apes; they believe that apes and humans share a common ancestor.
Next, "Big Bang Theory" is not part of the theory of evolution. One need not subscribe to the Big Bang Theory to believe in evolution.
Shawn, I share your belief in God and, I think, your enthusiasm, but Ophiura's advice to you was right on the mark. You clearly do not understand the theory of evolution. Many of the folks you are trying to persuade DO understand the theory, so unless you want to appear uneducated - and that's a bad place to start your effort at persuasion - you need to get up to speed on the theory you don't believe. At this point you're spending most of your time trying to disprove things that have nothing to do with the theory of evolution - like the "Big Bang Theory" and the idea that "man comes from apes".
As I said in an earlier post, you do yourself and your cause a disservice when your writing includes a bunch of malapropisms, spelling errors and grammatical errors. If you just ran your post through a spell-checker you'd catch a bunch of those errors like "biast", "adaption", and "eturnity". That would be a good start.
I'm sure you're a bright guy, and you obviously care about this topic. Why not try spending a little time in the books and then come out swinging? (And maybe you could find a good proof-reader to help for a while until you get your sea-legs :) .)
The theory of evolution is vulnerable to rational attack. The "missing link" is a great place to start, but it's only the tip of the iceberg. I'll give you an example. People understand the various bird-beak evolution examples, like this: Through random mutation a bird is born with a different beak, and that beak makes him better at securing food in a place where it is otherwise difficult to get food. His funky beak makes him successful, so he's well fed and able to provide plenty of food for his offspring. His genetic advantage is passed to his offspring, so they also do better, out-produce, and out-survive the birds with the "old" beaks. (Yes, it's a terrible over-simplification.) But what about the hundreds and hundreds of much more complex physiological systems that require a series of steps before any competitive advantage is produced?
There are many essential bodily functions that are the product of a series of linked processes - sometimes as many as fifteen or twenty processes or "reactions" that have to take place in sequence or the end result is not achieved. Blood clotting is such a process. No competitive advantage is imparted by the presence of the first "reaction" or "process". In fact, no advantage is conferred unless and until ALL of the necessary processes take place in the proper order and clotting is achieved. How does the species continue to exist while all of the potential variants are randomly generated? How did we ever make it to an organism with clotting blood? There are literally hundreds of similarly complicated physiological systems that apparently just "arrived" as a package. :notsure: :thinking:
Maybe we were better off talking about ice cream...
Shawn, I mentioned two books in an earlier post. They helped me. Maybe they will help you. :)
Here's another great book from a slightly different view (unrelated to the evolution debate). It is entitled. "Letters From a Skeptic", and it is a collection of correspondence between father and son on the issue of God. It's an easy read. Dad, a crusty old curmudgeon, doesn't believe in God, and he tells junior just what the problem with the whole idea is. Dad doesn't pull an punches, and juniors answers are great. They helped me a lot.
 

bang guy

Moderator
Originally Posted by shawnts106
Spinning BasketBalls and Planets are very different if you didnt know bang... first, things arent flying off of the basketball, second the basketball is already within a gravitational field and is already being acted upon by natural laws, the BIGBANG theory is where it "supposably" all got started and this is where the natural laws began... see my point?
So you are saying things are flying off of planets ("things arent flying off of the basketball"), planets are not in a gravitational field ("the basketball is already within a gravitational field") and they are not being acted upon by natural laws ("is already being acted upon by natural laws").
I think all of those statements are pretty far fetched.
 
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