Should College Students Be Allowed To Carry Weapons???

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2580098
They grew up around guns... seeing them used and as an everyday part of life. You do live in fear... thats why you want to argue that we need guns in school... I guess we should be allowed to carry any weapon... tasers.. knifes.. how about swords... Colleges are gun free zones... and because one person breaks the law means that its a call to arms... These incidents are probably less than 0.5% to happening. I am not saying there needs to be a gun in every room, but have a armed person on premises...maybe two if its a large hall.
We are talking about a person who was crazy... another more fair minded solution would be to catch these kids before the go down this road.. In the VT incident there were clear signs that this person was mentally unstable and should have been hospitalized... and other situations where there were signs of trouble.
You could also perhaps have metal detectors.. Lets use some common sense here
Ok, so an armed guard in every large hall-What happens when the crazy kills him first?
Who is going to enforce metal detectors at every entrance to every campus building? I'm all for using common sense.... Think about the logistical impossibility to what you are promoting. That's where common sense should come into play.
Have you ever shot a gun Rylan? I can draw my 9mm from my hip, shoot 6 times, drop a clip, load the next clip and fire 6 more times in 14 seconds, and hit the target dead on at 15 yards with every shot. How many people can a crazy lunatic kill in a crowded classroom before campus police can respond?
Your solution is to do nothing. So instead we just bury our head in in the sand and wait until the next student kills a bunch of his classmates before we blame the next popular tv show or video game.
No one is advocating kids be allowed to carry weapons. College students are adults.

 

[stdreb27]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2580100
thats the point... these things happen everywhere... where do you decide where to draw the line... It happens in high schools and even younger.
Since there are differences in law applying to minors, they have limited rights, it would be a pretty clear line. Although the line for not allowing guns on college campus's by CHL holders would be more arbitrary defined my congress which is questionably infringing on the second ammendment.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Let me break this down for you rylan . One unarmed security officer makes 10 to 12 dollars an hour . For the company to employe this officer They will normally charge close to double what the officer is paid . That means 20-24 dollars and hour for one officer . A college campus of any size would have at least one officer on duty at a time so in a day there are 24 hours thats between 480-576 dollars a day for one "unarmed" security guard (this is the person standing at the metal detector ) at each entrance / exit . Now there is 365 days a year thats between 175,200-210,240 dollars a year for one only one officer to be on post at a time . Now Take into account "Armed" officers make between 14-18 and hour , That now makes the cost per hour for one officer between 28-36 dollars an hour times that by 24 hours in a day your looking at 672 - 864 dollars a day for an armed security officer and a total of 245,280-315,360 a year to have one armed officer on patrol 24/7. Now if you want to put one Armed officer on at each hall or dorm start adding that up . Now granted you could go with a company willing to low ball the deal and save but thats when you get the fat rent a cops that are more interested in the vending machines than in safety of students . They are the ones that will be in their "office " watching the tv , or sleeping when you need them . Even if they are in the area when something happens they are going to be nothing more than another victim .
I would much rather trust public safty to a guy/girl thats willing to go to classes pass tests and put down their own hard earned money as a testement they are willing to deffend them self by getting a CCP then some fat slob that can pass a pee test and is willing to work for little better than minimum wage .

 

[geridoc]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2580123
Ok, so an armed guard in every large hall-What happens when the crazy kills him first?
Who is going to enforce metal detectors at every entrance to every campus building? I'm all for using common sense.... Think about the logistical impossibility to what you are promoting. That's where common sense should come into play.
Have you ever shot a gun Rylan? I can draw my 9mm from my hip, shoot 6 times, drop a clip, load the next clip and fire 6 more times in 14 seconds, and hit the target dead on at 15 yards with every shot. How many people can a crazy lunatic kill in a crowded classroom before campus police can respond?
Your solution is to do nothing. So instead we just bury our head in in the sand and wait until the next student kills a bunch of his classmates before we blame the next popular tv show or video game.
No one is advocating kids be allowed to carry weapons. College students are adults.
OK - so you are in a crowded study hall and you put 12 rounds into a "perp". Where are those rounds - probably through the target, and in 12 poor kids who were just sitting around trying to learn something. I don't see the advantage vs not having guns in untrained hands, and relying on trained law enforcement to do the job. Maybe its just because I'm in New York, where the police muster more trained firepower than a small country, and they do it on my campus in less than 5 minutes. Sure, a lot can happen in 5 minutes, but it can also happen when I return exams, and an already armed student decides that he got an unfair grade.
Also, I'm impressed with your shooting skills - but what about the other 20,000 sloppy, impulsive and untrained students who might also be carrying. My guess is that if an incident occurred, we would have 12X20,000 rounds flying around, and kill half of Queens, NY. Even seasoned cops fire in a panic when push comes to shove, so I wouldn't expect my students to do better, and the odds seem to be 1:3 that you would panic too.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2580023
The answer is NO... just like I am not able to carry a gun into my job. I have no problem with someone that age owning a gun... but they shouldn't be on college campuses. If the campus wants to provide security than fine... but I don't think students should have, or do have the responsiblity to make decisions that should be made by trained professionals in a "school shooting" situation... or for someone they believe to have a gun. I mean where does it end.. should high school students have guns too? Should postal employess have guns... or any place where a work or school related shooting occured in the past. The problem is that we live our lives in fear, and are scared to even walk out of the house or to send our kids to school. If you want to end gun-violence... than end the culture of guns we have in America... the countless murders seen on TV or on videogames daily. End waterguns and the games we play like "cops and robbers". We have a culture of violence and gun play... So the answer is we are not going to stop the culture we have... so the best solution would be to provide an armed guard (police) in Dorm Halls or Class Halls. But to change an environment of learning into an armory. I would possibably even consider a professor being allowed to carry.

Rylan,
I played "cops and robbers". I played guns/war as a kid . I grew up with "Pappy" Boyington as my boyhood hero. I can hit a 4" X at 600 yards. Somehow I turned out to be a healer and respect life. Why can I not defend myself, my family or even you? Why should law abiding citizens cower in "gun free zones" when criminals ingore the signs? Maybe the cops are 5 minutes away. Many people can die in 5 minutes. I can change the odd alittle with my concealed fire arm.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2580541
OK - so you are in a crowded study hall and you put 12 rounds into a "perp". Where are those rounds - probably through the target, and in 12 poor kids who were just sitting around trying to learn something. I don't see the advantage vs not having guns in untrained hands, and relying on trained law enforcement to do the job. Maybe its just because I'm in New York, where the police muster more trained firepower than a small country, and they do it on my campus in less than 5 minutes. Sure, a lot can happen in 5 minutes, but it can also happen when I return exams, and an already armed student decides that he got an unfair grade.
Also, I'm impressed with your shooting skills - but what about the other 20,000 sloppy, impulsive and untrained students who might also be carrying. My guess is that if an incident occurred, we would have 12X20,000 rounds flying around, and kill half of Queens, NY. Even seasoned cops fire in a panic when push comes to shove, so I wouldn't expect my students to do better, and the odds seem to be 1:3 that you would panic too.

No one has said they should be untrained. While State laws vary, I think we could all agree certain qualifications should be met.
If a student is going to snap over a grade and shoot you, Im fairly sure he's mental enough to go home, get the gun, and come back.
Further, not everyone would go out and buy a gun.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by GeriDoc
http:///forum/post/2580541
Also, I'm impressed with your shooting skills - but what about the other 20,000 sloppy, impulsive and untrained students who might also be carrying. My guess is that if an incident occurred, we would have 12X20,000 rounds flying around, and kill half of Queens, NY. Even seasoned cops fire in a panic when push comes to shove, so I wouldn't expect my students to do better, and the odds seem to be 1:3 that you would panic too.

That's why with the freedom of carrying a weapon goes the responsibility to train and practice.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/2580623
That's why with the freedom of carrying a weapon goes the responsibility to train and practice.
And who oversees this? In my circle of friends, I know of no one who owns a gun for self protection. I often wonder if a person feels the need to have a gun and carry it to inflate an ego or because they have a desire to use it?
Reading through this thread, it seems to me as if many of you think you live in a movie and you're some kind of super hero. The real world and real events happen so fast and without warning most of the time. When someone breaks into a lecture hall and opens fire you only have second or two to decide what you are going to do and I'll say it again, I doubt anyone posting in this thread has what it takes to upholster their weapon and drop the shooter. Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580691
And who oversees this? In my circle of friends, I know of no one who owns a gun for self protection. I often wonder if a person feels the need to have a gun and carry it to inflate an ego or because they have a desire to use it?
Reading through this thread, it seems to me as if many of you think you live in a movie and you're some kind of super hero. The real world and real events happen so fast and without warning most of the time. When someone breaks into a lecture hall and opens fire you only have second or two to decide what you are going to do and I'll say it again, I doubt anyone posting in this thread has what it takes to upholster their weapon and drop the shooter. Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap.

I'm an Emergency Physician, I'm trained to react to surprises every day. In the ED I live in your "real world", I make split second decisions. The NRA actually does a great job training and overseeing. I have no "desire" to use my weapon, yet I will not hesitate to use it should I be forced by the actions of another person to defend myself or my family.
Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580691
Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap
Well, come to think of it you described my job pretty well.

 

[fats71]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580691
And who oversees this? In my circle of friends, I know of no one who owns a gun for self protection. I often wonder if a person feels the need to have a gun and carry it to inflate an ego or because they have a desire to use it?
Reading through this thread, it seems to me as if many of you think you live in a movie and you're some kind of super hero. The real world and real events happen so fast and without warning most of the time. When someone breaks into a lecture hall and opens fire you only have second or two to decide what you are going to do and I'll say it again, I doubt anyone posting in this thread has what it takes to upholster their weapon and drop the shooter. Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap.
I would hope everyone would want to seek cover and go that route first.
My father told me when I was very young never ever fight if you can get away from it but if it is going to happen and their is no way out knock them out. Same applies here I think everyone on these boards respect life and are not the "nut vtech nut type" Everyone here would rather preserve life before taking it I am saying this due to the forum we are on... The puppy threads the new baby threads we are all on the same page. I do not see anyone here wanting to go out and play the wild wild west posse out for no reason but in some cases their is no other choice.

 

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2580023
but I don't think students should have, or do have the responsiblity to make decisions that should be made by trained professionals in a "school shooting" situation... or for someone they believe to have a gun.
So situations like virginia tech are just going to happen and we have to except that? These people in that class room should not be able to defend them selves? Instead just panic and run about making them easier targets.
What is everyones deal with college age people not being able to properly handle firearms. I mean if we allowed this age group to carry firearms and they knew everyone else around them might also be armed it would most likely make them mature and take life a bit more seriously if there was an even playing feild. There would be less ridicule, there would be more respect amongst each other.
I think it would be fantastic if that V. tech story ended with 'and 20 students shot back putting about 100 holes in thats morons body before he could get off a second shot.'

 

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580691
And who oversees this? In my circle of friends, I know of no one who owns a gun for self protection. I often wonder if a person feels the need to have a gun and carry it to inflate an ego or because they have a desire to use it?
Reading through this thread, it seems to me as if many of you think you live in a movie and you're some kind of super hero. The real world and real events happen so fast and without warning most of the time. When someone breaks into a lecture hall and opens fire you only have second or two to decide what you are going to do and I'll say it again, I doubt anyone posting in this thread has what it takes to upholster their weapon and drop the shooter. Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap.

Thats because you live in cushy wussy USA where we rely on the police and military to protect us and its a tragedy when they were not there to defend us.
Really you think that no one here can unholster a gun and shot someone shooting at them. Well I guess there are those that piss there pants and those that dont.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by Jaymz
http:///forum/post/2580852
So situations like virginia tech are just going to happen and we have to except that? These people in that class room should not be able to defend them selves? Instead just panic and run about making them easier targets.
What is everyones deal with college age people not being able to properly handle firearms. I mean if we allowed this age group to carry firearms and they knew everyone else around them might also be armed it would most likely make them mature and take life a bit more seriously if there was an even playing feild. There would be less ridicule, there would be more respect amongst each other.
I think it would be fantastic if that V. tech story ended with 'and 20 students shot back putting about 100 holes in thats morons body before he could get off a second shot.'
How long does it take to pull one shot then the second? Again, this isn't the movies, this is real and it happens in a split second...can you imagine the pandemonium and chaos if 20 students pulled out guns in response to one gunman? They'd more then likely shoot each other, no one would know who the original gunman was...silly.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by Jaymz
http:///forum/post/2580855
Thats because you live in cushy wussy USA where we rely on the police and military to protect us and its a tragedy when they were not there to defend us.
Really you think that no one here can unholster a gun and shot someone shooting at them. Well I guess there are those that piss there pants and those that dont.
Are you that man Jaymz, are you our hero?

 

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580860
Are you that man Jaymz, are you our hero?
Yes mam. I have very little respect for human life anyway so it would feel pretty good.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by Jaymz
http:///forum/post/2580865
Yes mam. I have very little respect for human life anyway so it would feel pretty good.
Classic, how easy it is to say things like that over a message board

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580858
How long does it take to pull one shot then the second? Again, this isn't the movies, this is real and it happens in a split second...can you imagine the pandemonium and chaos if 20 students pulled out guns in response to one gunman? They'd more then likely shoot each other, no one would know who the original gunman was...silly.
There's about nothing political you and I agree with, except for this. Unless they are going to make the kids go through law enforcement training there is nothing to keep what you just layed out from happening.

 

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2580889
There's about nothing political you and I agree with, except for this. Unless they are going to make the kids go through law enforcement training there is nothing to keep what you just layed out from happening.
Its not that hard to say in real life. I dont have much respect for human life simple as that. I dont really care. Why does it concern me. I would think that 9/11 was terrible if anyone of the few people i actually cared about was involved. But no there was not so I just dont care. Thats my piss poor attitude. One third world country is slaying and raping another third world country. Dont care. Why should I care. I only live once and it is for a very short period of time. I dont have time to worry about everyone in my family let alone everyone else in the world that maybe be starving or opressed. Nor do I expect them to care a bit for me. Ill get mine. Go get yours.

 

[jaymz]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580877
Classic, how easy it is to say things like that over a message board

Its not that hard to say in real life. I dont have much respect for human life simple as that. I dont really care. Why does it concern me. I would think that 9/11 was terrible if anyone of the few people i actually cared about was involved. But no there was not so I just dont care. Thats my piss poor attitude. One third world country is slaying and raping another third world country. Dont care. Why should I care. I only live once and it is for a very short period of time. I dont have time to worry about everyone in my family let alone everyone else in the world that maybe be starving or opressed. Nor do I expect them to care a bit for me. Ill get mine. Go get yours.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Jmick
http:///forum/post/2580691
And who oversees this? In my circle of friends, I know of no one who owns a gun for self protection. I often wonder if a person feels the need to have a gun and carry it to inflate an ego or because they have a desire to use it?
Reading through this thread, it seems to me as if many of you think you live in a movie and you're some kind of super hero. The real world and real events happen so fast and without warning most of the time. When someone breaks into a lecture hall and opens fire you only have second or two to decide what you are going to do and I'll say it again, I doubt anyone posting in this thread has what it takes to upholster their weapon and drop the shooter. Think about it, moments before you were focused on something else and are taken by surprise. If I were to bet on it, I'd put my money on you running for your lives or seeking cover asap.
Where are you getting this info?
Typically the shooter wanders around randomly going into classrooms and shooting, then going into another class and doing the same (baed on the school shootings we've seen). They have had multiple weapons, time to reload, etc.
How long does it take to get 75 students out of a room with 2 or 4 doors? Especially if a shooter is at one of them? It takes a lot longer than "a second or two"
Jmick, do a little reading of the Virginia Tech shooting as an example. The shooter chained the main doors to the building shut. He went into multiple rooms.
Again, where are you getting this "one or two seconds" idea? They guy shot almost 200 rounds.