The "C" Word

[tizzo]

I would not even wanna be president. Have you ever seen a female in a position of authority?? They do not handle it well when crisis strikes. can't say I'd do much better...
But YES, my birthday is now a national holiday and then THAT can be our family time.

 

[michelle l]

Originally Posted by Tizzo
Michelle L.
I hafta give you a compliment on how you handle yourself. I wish all athiests would handle there self as you do. You didn't argue or force your opinion or even justify it. You simply don't believe in God you are comfortable with that. While accepting that others are comfortable with their faith. It's simple, but huge.
As far as Christmas... It's been mentioned, but for the sake of redundancy... They day was "created" to be a celebration. It "turned into" a commercialised, profit making scam over hyped by dept. stores. On one end of the spectrum, you can say to call it by another name because the reason for it's celebration is very rarely seen anymore.
It IS family time, but that was a result, not the cause. When I see grown men fighting for the last X-Box or frenzied women tramping on another to bust down the doors of a store, I see no Christ in the holiday. Maybe it would be an eye opener for even Christians, if they were to rename the holiday.
For me, I try to encorporate Christ in all this gift giving and celebration, but I admit that I lose sight too...
Changing the name of Christmas... :thinking:
That's something to ponder...
Thank you. Live and let live!

I agree wholeheartedly about the spirit if Christmas getting lost in the hype of commercialism. My father-in-law saw an old woman get knocked down at Sam's by a crowd of people on the day after Thanksgiving in a rush to grab the sales. I think that is just really sad when a few bucks drives people over the edge like that.

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by Michelle L
"...and i know most of the people bashing christmas and 'in God we trust' are atheist, but we don't bother them any either!"
I don't quite agree with that. I am atheist, but I have no problem with anyone celebrating any religion, or prayer in school, or saying "God Bless You," or anything of that nature. Christianity is what our great country was founded upon. I just ask that nobody try to force me into believing what I don't believe or trying to "save me." I respect other's right to worship God, though. I ask that they respect my choice not to. I know there are freak shows out there who try to force their atheism on others, but they are not the norm.
I don't know where you get your info, but all atheists that I know don't bash Christmas. We all celerate it too because it's how we were raised, and it means more than just celebrating the birth of Jesus...it's a celebration of friends and family. I occasionally attend Christmas services with my husband (devout Catholic) simply because I think that the atmosphere is wonderful and peaceful, and I enjoy the feeling of unity among the people there, even though many of them don't know each other. It's nice.
I think that there are more atheists out there than what people think, we just don't broadcast it because it makes us a target. It's easier to just not say anything. I have encountered several people who say that they don't believe in God after the conversation sort of drifts that direction. Once they learn that I don't have any religious belief, they opened up and said that they didn't either. But none of us have carried on like idiots, trying to get things changed or eliminated to satisfy our beliefs.
I don't get the whole eliminating Christmas thing either. For crying out loud, a Christmas tree is a symbol of a religious holiday, with a distinct history and purpose, just as other religions have symbols for their religious artifacts. That doesn't mean that other religions need to demand that those symbols undergo a name change!!

I can understand some small groups wanting to stop the practice of cashiers saying "Merry Christmas!!" to them if they don't even celebrate Christmas. It would get on my nerves if everyone kept saying, "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" or "Happy 'Eid ul-Adha." when I didn't celebrate it. I don't approve of banning the term "Christmas," but I can say that I understand why people get touchy about it. But to stop the practice of saying "Christmas Sale" in ads and banning the term "Christmas Tree" is just ridiculous. "Holiday Tree?" Come on! What other religion uses a tree as their symbol for the holiday?? And to keep kids from having a Christmas party?? Please!!
The previous poster was right. Other religions need to tolerate Christmas, just as we tolerate their holidays. The majority of the US, (and perhaps the world?) celebrates Christmas. Don't try to mess with the names of things. It's just not right.
Wrong wrong wrong.
This country was founded by Deists, look up some quotes by Thomas Jefferson reguarding christianity (i believe he said that it was "the greatest threat to liberty the world has ever known", and check out ben franklin as well, oh, and read thomas paine's "The age of reason"
And on top of that, Jesus is NOT the reason for the season, i'm really sick of hearing that lately, The reason for the season is Yule, or the celebration of the winter solstice. Yule is a Norse and Germanic holiday which was celebrated in the darkest days of winter, it lasted twelve days (hence the twelve days of christmas) with a present given every day, featured decorating the house with evergreen trees (which wrapping them with garland started with the germanic warriors wrapping their disembowelled enemies intestines around trees as a warning), decking the halls with holly and mistletoe (to remind the tribal pagans that nature has not died, and cannot die).

 

[kablamo]

There was some dispute about the proper date of the birth of Christ and not everyone agrees even to this day. It was not until A.D. 350, that December 25 was declared the official date for celebrating Christmas by Pope Julius I. When the fathers of the church decided to settle upon a date to celebrate the event, they wisely chose the day of the winter solstice, since it coincided with some rival religions' celebrations and the rebirth of the sun (see Year of the Sun Calendar), symbolized by bon-fires and yule logs. December 25 was a festival long before the conversion of the Germanic peoples to Christianity, it seemed fitting that the time of their winter festival would also be the time to celebrate the birth of Christ. The darkness that had frightened and threatened to defeat the ancient pagans, was forever defeated by the coming of Christ."
Christian Plagiarism, plain and simple.
I'm going to call it a Yule tree, thank you very much.
as far as sources are concerned:
according to Ruth Reichmann of the Max Kade German-American Center, IUPUI, "Pagans had traditionally decked their halls with boughs of holly, evergreens and mistletoe to symbolize winter's inability to prevent the renewal of life. Merrymaking came to have a share in Christmas observance through popular enthusiasm. The medieval secular celebrations lasted for a "season," extending from Christmas eve to Epiphany, and in some localities even from St. Thomas' Day, Dec. 21 (honoring the "doubting Thomas," disciple of Jesus) to Candlemas (February 2).

So enjoy the holidays with family and friends, it is a special time, the beginning of Winter, the shortest day of the year (in the northern hemisphere), but please do not insult the nonbelievers with the christian fabricated myth of the reason for the season.

 

[michelle l]

Reminder: I'm a non-believer, and I'm not insulted by reason for the saeason and all that stuff.

Getting pretty deep here, I'd better go visit the classifieds or aggressive fish forum. See ya later alligator!

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
Wrong wrong wrong.
This country was founded by Deists, look up some quotes by Thomas Jefferson reguarding christianity (i believe he said that it was "the greatest threat to liberty the world has ever known", and check out ben franklin as well, oh, and read thomas paine's "The age of reason"
And on top of that, Jesus is NOT the reason for the season, i'm really sick of hearing that lately, The reason for the season is Yule, or the celebration of the winter solstice. Yule is a Norse and Germanic holiday which was celebrated in the darkest days of winter, it lasted twelve days (hence the twelve days of christmas) with a present given every day, featured decorating the house with evergreen trees (which wrapping them with garland started with the germanic warriors wrapping their disembowelled enemies intestines around trees as a warning), decking the halls with holly and mistletoe (to remind the tribal pagans that nature has not died, and cannot die).
Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were NOT the ONLY founding fathers of this country. I really wish people would quite using these two as their base arguement. They were TWO OUT OF MANY!

 

[my way]

I personally hate the commercialism (is that even a word?) of all holidays mostly Christmas and I won't offend anybody with my thoughts on religeon. But would everyone in the whole damn world take this politically correct stuff AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR A***ES!!!!! Leave Christmas alone! it's not hurting any body. Is'nt there a lot more problems in this world than what we call a holiday decoration? If it was'nt for the Chrismas holiday, there would'nt be a Christmas Tree? Don't you call a lug wrench you use to tighten the lug nuts on you car's wheels that because that's what it does? OK I feel better now!

 

[michelle l]

"But would everyone in the whole damn world take this politically correct stuff AND SHOVE IT UP THEIR A***ES!!!!! Leave Christmas alone! it's not hurting any body. Is'nt there a lot more problems in this world than what we call a holiday decoration?"
Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[salsells]

i think this is appropriate for this forum, really my sentiment...nightb4xmas.wmv

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by Darth Tang
Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were NOT the ONLY founding fathers of this country. I really wish people would quite using these two as their base arguement. They were TWO OUT OF MANY!
I won't paste it here, it's too long and might offend, if you are brave look here.
http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

 

[socal57che]

My six year old daughter just learned "little drummer boy" in school. She was also taught that this song is about a boy honoring Jesus. It made me feel good that at least a few are left that are not afraid to say and teach what needs to be said and taught. If you don't believe, well, that's fine. I learned about the Koran and the Muslim religion in 6th grade along with Buddism, Hindu, Roman Gods, Greek Gods and so on and so on. I made my own decisions about what I think is right. If someone doesn't like Christmas, or want to celebrate Christmas that's fine. I try to honor God every day with my actions and like to see so much attention given to Jesus Christ at Christmas for whatever reason. Maybe someone who has not yet been saved will pick up the Bible to see what it's all about. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

 

[cheyco]

Originally Posted by Michelle L
Reminder: I'm a non-believer, and I'm not insulted by reason for the saeason and all that stuff.

Getting pretty deep here, I'd better go visit the classifieds or aggressive fish forum. See ya later alligator!
Michelle, I'm sure you've heard the saying about when athiests die, "all dressed up and no place to go." Just a joke, not trying to offend. I believe what I believe is right and someone else believes what they believe is right. I don't necessacirly care for Howard Stern so I just don't listen.

 

[my way]

Originally Posted by socal57che
Maybe someone who has not yet been saved will pick up the Bible to see what it's all about. That would be nice, wouldn't it?
You just crossed the line here! And what am I being saved from?

 

[zman1]

Originally Posted by Beth
Lowes, starting the holidays with Holiday Trees for sale, but now they are selling Christmas Trees. LOL Geez...will everybody who doesn't like Christmas, go get your own holiday and name it "WhatEver". LOL

Ditto -- And let's make it a national holiday, so we get another day off

 

[kablamo]

Originally Posted by My Way
You just crossed the line here! And what am I being saved from?
/agree

 

[jer4916]

I personally think everyone should just calm down (not in this thread but in the holiday sense) ...Christmas is what Americans have celebrated for well over 200 years. It is a national holiday. Yes it is based on the birth of Jesus Christ, but funny thing this country was founded by Christians.
America as a whole is a Christian nation, those who don’t like it, have the right to leave or tolerate it. I personally accept Jews, Muslims, atheists in there choices, and I will not push my views on them...it is not my place to make them rename there holidays. nor should they mine. Like I said before, we live in America, and Christmas is OUR holiday. I sure as ---- bet you if you went to India and tried raise a storm about there holidays and what there called, they'd kill you...not hold your had and wonder if your offended.
People need to suck up there pathetic lives and learn that life does involve tolerance....I mean heck I cant stand stupid slow people... doesn't mean I push them out of the way and call them morons (at least not to there face) ..hehe... point is ... I think its lame our country is so concerned about hurting everyone’s feelings. Woopty do...so Johnny doesn't like something and it hurts his feelings.... i remember when i was a kid...if someone hurt my feelings.... it wasn't sit down and talk to a social worker...it was my dad sitting down saying “Chris suck it up, be a man and don’t worry about it." …of course I also got spankings as well….Lord knows how bad that psychology that was… I mean….wow … I grew up to be an abusive person….not …I grew up being a man and learning how to deal with things.
I really wonder what happened to that part of our society.
~Chris

 

[zman1]

I wonder for the folks that work for a business that is closed on Christmas and are offended by Christmas. Are they so offended they refuse the holiday pay and the day off. Being offended, I bet only goes so far.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Kablamo
There was some dispute about the proper date of the birth of Christ and not everyone agrees even to this day. It was not until A.D. 350, that December 25 was declared the official date for celebrating Christmas by Pope Julius I.
First off, you won't find many Biblical scholars who will tell you that Christ was born in December... the Biblical accounts point more towards a summer birth. The Pope 1600 years ago didn't know that...
Now, umm... since the Pope was a Christian (well, i'm assuming that anyway.. the judging of the condition of his soul is best left to God) and he started the celebration of honoring the birth of Jesus... doesn't that more or less make it a "Christian" holiday? I mean, if the pagans wish to change the holiday back they can certainly try (some would say they are trying...) but until such time it's now Christmas.
You don't have to like Christmas (Christ-mas), but don't try to tell me it's a pagan holiday. The church was looking for a way to incorporate pagan cultural holidays into the Faith. You can call that plagarism if you like, others will call it inclusion.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by My Way
You just crossed the line here! And what am I being saved from?
How was that comment "crossing a line"? It's no secret Christians believe in A Holy God, a fallen world, and the need for a perfect sacrifice (Jesus) to pay the price for eternal seperation (through sin) from God.
Socal was just stating opinion... you can't talk about Jesus without addressing what many believe He lived and died for.
Originally Posted by My Way
...And what am I being saved from?
Again, Christians believe "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God..." Therefore, the "saved" comment was referring to the ability of all mankind to be "saved" "from the wages of sin" which "is death".
I read SoCal's post several times... it didn't seem to me to be an attack against anyone.. I could just as easily quote the "I'm an atheist" remarks and scream "How DARE You Deny My God...".
I hope this conversation remains constructive.. I know it is difficult, but so far everyone seems to have done a good job of stating their opinions without deliberately trying to offend...

 

[jdragunas]

i was thinking all those same thoughts, journey!!! It's so much easier to say "i agree wholeheartedly" than to type it all out... you did the work for me!! thanks!!!