"We will not rest"

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3199180
I was using Saudi Arabians as an example, not singling them out. Your logic leap is irrational.
Whether or not I need an invitation to visit Europe is up to the host country. I would respect their wishes.
I have read my posts and stand by them. Perhaps you should read them without the paradigm blinders. From your posts I could imply that you believe the current system is beyond improvements and any discussion about improvements is paranoia.
Ah, so you conveniently single out a race that lives in the Middle East, where most terroist come from, and then say my 'logic leap is irrational'.

I must admit, you make a real good attempt at twisting words around yourself to make it look like I'm the one misquoting.

Just admit it. You don't trust anyone that comes from the Middle east to this country. Quit trying to hide behind this facade that you believe in equality with all races, no matter where they're from.
So you backup your 'invitation' blunder by saying a host country should 'invite' you to their country in order for you to visit? Are you honestly going to say this with a straight face? I've traveled extensively all over the world the last 40 years or so, and I've NEVER been invited or asked for an invitation to go to any of those destinations. Keep trying Bang. Everytime you make posts like this, my smile gets wider and wider.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3199130
What is wrong with using race, ethnicity or religion to profile a criminal? Would you be so offended if a cop pulled over a pickup truck full of skinheads in Watts if they had a report of some Aryans taking shots at the locals?
Uh, because in most states, it's against the law. It's unlawful to single out an individual just because of their skin tone. Based on yours and Bang's logic, any person traveling to the US from the Middle East is already tagged as a 'criminal suspect' simply because they come from a specific region of the world. Believe it or not, the Middle East actually has some honest and trustworthy people. Shoot, if I used your train of thought, since over half the population of San Antonio is Hispanic, they all must have come from Mexico. And we know that a majority of Mexicans are in the US illegally, so that means every Hispanic that lives in San Antonio needs to carry a valid US Passport so we can insure they are truly American citizens. The San Antonio Police and the US Border Patrol has the right to stop any Hispanic at any time and 'ask for papers' to insure they shouldn't be deported. See how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199218
Ah, so you conveniently single out a race that lives in the Middle East, where most terroist come from, and then say my 'logic leap is irrational'.

I must admit, you make a real good attempt at twisting words around yourself to make it look like I'm the one misquoting.

Just admit it. You don't trust anyone that comes from the Middle east to this country. Quit trying to hide behind this facade that you believe in equality with all races, no matter where they're from.
So you backup your 'invitation' blunder by saying a host country should 'invite' you to their country in order for you to visit? Are you honestly going to say this with a straight face? I've traveled extensively all over the world the last 40 years or so, and I've NEVER been invited or asked for an invitation to go to any of those destinations. Keep trying Bang. Everytime you make posts like this, my smile gets wider and wider.
Keep smiling, it's healthy.
I still have no idea where you're going with the race card. My only conclusion is that you would prefer to twist words and make false implications to shut down a conversation that could result in sharing ideas. It has worked, congrats. You must be very proud

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199216
Why would you make this statement? My grandmother was 100% Commanche. She left her home in Oklahoma and moved to Texas where she met my Irish grandfather.
No malice was intended. I wanted to see how you would react to a false accusation. You reacted the same way I would.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3199246
Keep smiling, it's healthy.
I still have no idea where you're going with the race card. My only conclusion is that you would prefer to twist words and make false implications to shut down a conversation that could result in sharing ideas. It has worked, congrats. You must be very proud

I'm not going anywhere with what you term the 'race card'. I'm just pointing out that your idea of airline security is to restrict access to the US on YOUR terms to a specific group of people, whether they are Saudi's, French, Iraqis, Nigerians, Somalis, Greeks, or Italians. I guess you can't classify 'foreigners' as a race, but you are targeting these individuals as requiring them to provide some sort of extensive background check before flying to the US. So I don't know what term you would use to identified these people. I say it's racial profiling, you tend to disagree. I'm also saying that you are 'color blind' if you think only inidividuals from other countries can commit these types of acts. It has been shown that there are 'sleeper cells' within the US borders that are capable of performing this same devious act. Will one pop up and attempt the same thing? Doubtful.
I imagine people flying will have nothing to worry about for the next year or so. The 'PETN in the underwear' has been done, so Al-Qaida knows every security agency across the world will implement some screening process to find this chemical. The Netherlands, i.e. Amsterdam, where this Nigerian's flight originated has already begun the screening process. They've installed the full-body scanners at all their airports, and are requiring anyone traveling to the US to go through it. Several US cities have stated they will begin random full-body scans this week at some of the major airports like DFW, San Francisco, LA, and Chicago. So in a sense, Al-Qaida has already won. They successfully disrupted a process that was actually winding down. The TSA was starting to limit the 'shoes and jackets' requirement at the smaller airports, and they were beginning to allow some items like fingernail clippers back on the plane. Not anymore. Now some airlines are even going to the extremes of not allowing access to carry-ons, no blankets, and on short flights, no electronic devices. So again, this little attempt has put us back another few years on the 'airline convenience factor'. If you don't fly that much, it really doesn't affect you. Dor those that are frequent flyers, it's just another day at the airport.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199222
Uh, because in most states, it's against the law. It's unlawful to single out an individual just because of their skin tone. Based on yours and Bang's logic, any person traveling to the US from the Middle East is already tagged as a 'criminal suspect' simply because they come from a specific region of the world. Believe it or not, the Middle East actually has some honest and trustworthy people. Shoot, if I used your train of thought, since over half the population of San Antonio is Hispanic, they all must have come from Mexico. And we know that a majority of Mexicans are in the US illegally, so that means every Hispanic that lives in San Antonio needs to carry a valid US Passport so we can insure they are truly American citizens. The San Antonio Police and the US Border Patrol has the right to stop any Hispanic at any time and 'ask for papers' to insure they shouldn't be deported. See how ridiculous that sounds?

Do you not have the capability to understand the concept that their is a difference between targeting someone because they are _____________ and doing so because there is credible evidence that someone who is _______________ has committed a crime?
If there is a pick up truck driving through the barrio with confederate flag stickers and a bumper sticker that says "Go back to Mexico Por Favor" and the cops pull them over is that racial profiling or damn good police work?
If a Mexican gang is robbing liquor stores in San Antonio do you want them to pull over everyone lest they look like they are singling out hispanics?

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3199376
Do you not have the capability to understand the concept that their is a difference between targeting someone because they are _____________ and doing so because there is credible evidence that someone who is _______________ has committed a crime?
If there is a pick up truck driving through the barrio with confederate flag stickers and a bumper sticker that says "Go back to Mexico Por Favor" and the cops pull them over is that racial profiling or damn good police work?
If a Mexican gang is robbing liquor stores in San Antonio do you want them to pull over everyone lest they look like they are singling out hispanics?
Everyone is missing the 80,000lbs elephant in this room.
A person got on a plane who paid with cash for a one way ticket, had no bags to check and no passport.
Did anyone in gov't learn anything from 9/11/01?
How can they catch a subtle terrorist when the blatant ones get by like this?
My engine didn't quit, I'm flying a glider.............
These people are providing for my common defense?!!?
Look behind the trees and see the woods please.
The "system worked", I don't think so, not even close in this blatant case.

 

[reefraff]

My point is we have been bit by persian, Arab, Black, Asian and even whites. What do they all have in common?
To ignore the common trait among all the terrorists is the height of stupidity.
If we know Muslims, especially those with ties to countries known for having terrorists basing operations there what is wrong with taking a hard look at them?
I think many of these people who scream racial profiling or racism at the drop of a hat are doing so to mask their own guilty feelings.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3199376
Do you not have the capability to understand the concept that their is a difference between targeting someone because they are _____________ and doing so because there is credible evidence that someone who is _______________ has committed a crime?
If there is a pick up truck driving through the barrio with confederate flag stickers and a bumper sticker that says "Go back to Mexico Por Favor" and the cops pull them over is that racial profiling or damn good police work?
If a Mexican gang is robbing liquor stores in San Antonio do you want them to pull over everyone lest they look like they are singling out hispanics?
OK. What credible evidence did they have to stop this Nigerian kid from getting on the plane? His father warned some CIA officials that his kid has been affiliated with Al-Qaida operatives. The CIA investigated to a point, and said there wasn't enough evidence to prove this was true. Reports now say they speculated the father had a falling out with his son, and he was coming up with this Jihad story to get the US Govt. to find his kid on our nickel. The agency that did the initial investigation, instead of simply forwarding the information to the next level, sat on it, again thinking the report from the father wasn't credible. So the kid shows up at a ticket counter in Amsterdam with supposedly some well dressed Indian guy. They say he had a valid US Visa and other documents that allowed him to get a ticket. The only red flag that the Amsterdam agents missed is what oscardeuce brought up. As soon as this Indian guy dropped $2800 cash on the counter to buy the ticket for someone besides himself, red flags should've popped up all over the place. But it was the Amsterdam officials that dropped that ball, not the US Homeland Security.
But you want to deny this kid a ticket simply because he's Nigerian. Do you know how many teens and college kids fly around the world on a daily basis, either alone or with a companion? For that matter, how many Nigerians, Saudis, French, and every other nationality from around the world fly into the US on a daily basis? So how do you discern who is good and who is bad? By the color of their skin, by the clothes they wear, by the way they walk, by the way they talk? My daughter hangs out with this girl that dresses in Goth attire, wears the black lipstick, earrings in the nose, the whole bit. If you look at her, you immediately think, "Oh, this kid is trouble." This 'girl' holds a 101 average in all her classes, and is slated to be in the Top 1% of her high school graduating class. Her and her brother are the nicest kids you'd ever know, and they're parents are devout Catholics. But I'm sure if you saw her walking up to a ticket counter to buy a ticket by herself for a international flight, you'd have her stripped search and run through the ringer before she boarded the plane.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199502
OK. What credible evidence did they have to stop this Nigerian kid from getting on the plane? His father warned some CIA officials that his kid has been affiliated with Al-Qaida operatives. The CIA investigated to a point, and said there wasn't enough evidence to prove this was true. Reports now say they speculated the father had a falling out with his son, and he was coming up with this Jihad story to get the US Govt. to find his kid on our nickel. The agency that did the initial investigation, instead of simply forwarding the information to the next level, sat on it, again thinking the report from the father wasn't credible. So the kid shows up at a ticket counter in Amsterdam with supposedly some well dressed Indian guy. They say he had a valid US Visa and other documents that allowed him to get a ticket. The only red flag that the Amsterdam agents missed is what oscardeuce brought up. As soon as this Indian guy dropped $2800 cash on the counter to buy the ticket for someone besides himself, red flags should've popped up all over the place. But it was the Amsterdam officials that dropped that ball, not the US Homeland Security.
But you want to deny this kid a ticket simply because he's Nigerian. Do you know how many teens and college kids fly around the world on a daily basis, either alone or with a companion? For that matter, how many Nigerians, Saudis, French, and every other nationality from around the world fly into the US on a daily basis? So how do you discern who is good and who is bad? By the color of their skin, by the clothes they wear, by the way they walk, by the way they talk? My daughter hangs out with this girl that dresses in Goth attire, wears the black lipstick, earrings in the nose, the whole bit. If you look at her, you immediately think, "Oh, this kid is trouble." This 'girl' holds a 101 average in all her classes, and is slated to be in the Top 1% of her high school graduating class. Her and her brother are the nicest kids you'd ever know, and they're parents are devout Catholics. But I'm sure if you saw her walking up to a ticket counter to buy a ticket by herself for a international flight, you'd have her stripped search and run through the ringer before she boarded the plane.

If a kid from say, Iceland was to have his father report that the kid was involved with Al Queada and another from Yemen make the same claim which are you going to place a higher priority on, the one from Iceland or the one from Yemen?
It has nothing to do with what they look like, it has to do with their proximity to known terrorist operations.
Yemen is known to have a high number or terrorists operating there. You aren't targeting Yemenis for being Arabs (I think) You are targeting them for being from a country known to have terrorists operating there.
If people are known to be driving from Oklahoma into Texas to steal gas is it wrong for the Texas cops to keep an eye out for Trucks with Oklahoma plates and barrels or gas cans in the back?

 

[geridoc]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3198889
Where you been the last few years as we have been discussing illegal immigration?
This discussion has been about legal immigrants and the screening process. It goes without saying that the screening process for most illegal immigrants is non-existant.

 

[nigerbang]

Just my .02
Ive done plenty of travel abroad.. Ive been stopped at an airport check point because I had a cell phone in my pocket I forgot about (pre-2001) They swabbed my bookbag with some crap that tests for bomb residue..Was it an inconvience.. Yes.. Was it that big of a deal.. No
We snagged this recent one out of luck.. Will we be so lucky next time? Who knows..
If I was traveling to another country and they required a background check it wouldnt be a deal breaker.. It would show me that they are serious about keeping me and others safe by trying to deter dangerous people from coming in.. Is it failproof? No.. But what is?

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3199519
If a kid from say, Iceland was to have his father report that the kid was involved with Al Queada and another from Yemen make the same claim which are you going to place a higher priority on, the one from Iceland or the one from Yemen?
It has nothing to do with what they look like, it has to do with their proximity to known terrorist operations.
Yemen is known to have a high number or terrorists operating there. You aren't targeting Yemenis for being Arabs (I think) You are targeting them for being from a country known to have terrorists operating there.
If people are known to be driving from Oklahoma into Texas to steal gas is it wrong for the Texas cops to keep an eye out for Trucks with Oklahoma plates and barrels or gas cans in the back?
The thing is, the CIA or anyone else didn't know where this kid was. So regardless if he was hanging out in Yeman is irrelevent. Where the ball was dropped was the CIA didn't just verify whether this kid was in the updated No Fly database so that if he did try flying out, he would be flagged. What's interesting is that Al-Qaida would've known this kid was hot, because it's been reported that the US knew about him since August. So what did Al-Qaida know about Amsterdam security that they were pretty confident this kid could get on a plane with little or no issues? Now that Amsterdam got their hand caught in the cookie jar, they've locked their airport security down. This is why background checks are useless, unless you make it another required document like a Visa to enter or exit a country. Even with that, which worldwide organization decides the parameters for the background check?

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199502
OK. What credible evidence did they have to stop this Nigerian kid from getting on the plane? His father warned some CIA officials that his kid has been affiliated with Al-Qaida operatives. The CIA investigated to a point, and said there wasn't enough evidence to prove this was true. Reports now say they speculated the father had a falling out with his son, and he was coming up with this Jihad story to get the US Govt. to find his kid on our nickel. The agency that did the initial investigation, instead of simply forwarding the information to the next level, sat on it, again thinking the report from the father wasn't credible. So the kid shows up at a ticket counter in Amsterdam with supposedly some well dressed Indian guy. They say he had a valid US Visa and other documents that allowed him to get a ticket. The only red flag that the Amsterdam agents missed is what oscardeuce brought up. As soon as this Indian guy dropped $2800 cash on the counter to buy the ticket for someone besides himself, red flags should've popped up all over the place. But it was the Amsterdam officials that dropped that ball, not the US Homeland Security.
But you want to deny this kid a ticket simply because he's Nigerian. Do you know how many teens and college kids fly around the world on a daily basis, either alone or with a companion? For that matter, how many Nigerians, Saudis, French, and every other nationality from around the world fly into the US on a daily basis? So how do you discern who is good and who is bad? By the color of their skin, by the clothes they wear, by the way they walk, by the way they talk? My daughter hangs out with this girl that dresses in Goth attire, wears the black lipstick, earrings in the nose, the whole bit. If you look at her, you immediately think, "Oh, this kid is trouble." This 'girl' holds a 101 average in all her classes, and is slated to be in the Top 1% of her high school graduating class. Her and her brother are the nicest kids you'd ever know, and they're parents are devout Catholics. But I'm sure if you saw her walking up to a ticket counter to buy a ticket by herself for a international flight, you'd have her stripped search and run through the ringer before she boarded the plane.

I'm saying learn from history. This guy did everything but announce he had a bomb. He should have been searched based on his BEHAVIOR not his race. Let him buy the ticket, but search him. If I did the same, I'd expect if not demand to be more throughly searched.
Again it does not take a rocket scientist to have seen this coming.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3199611
I'm saying learn from history. This guy did everything but announce he had a bomb. He should have been searched based on his BEHAVIOR not his race. Let him buy the ticket, but search him. If I did the same, I'd expect if not demand to be more throughly searched.
Again it does not take a rocket scientist to have seen this coming.
I agree with you completely. But what I've read, the kid didn't do anything at the Amsterdam airport that was considered out of the ordinary. It was stated he didn't say much if anything at all to the ticket agent, that the Indian guy was doing all the talking. He wasn't dressed inappropriately, and he had all the proper documentation. The ticket agent apparently screwed up by not raising a flag when some person was paying cash for some kid with this "The boy is indigent and needs to get to his family in the US" BS story. But once the ticket was issued, he just looked like a college kid getting on a plane to the US. I doubt the security screeners thought it was unusual he didn't have any luggage. They probably assumed he just checked all his bag at the ticket counter.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199634
I agree with you completely. But what I've read, the kid didn't do anything at the Amsterdam airport that was considered out of the ordinary. It was stated he didn't say much if anything at all to the ticket agent, that the Indian guy was doing all the talking. He wasn't dressed inappropriately, and he had all the proper documentation. The ticket agent apparently screwed up by not raising a flag when some person was paying cash for some kid with this "The boy is indigent and needs to get to his family in the US" BS story. But once the ticket was issued, he just looked like a college kid getting on a plane to the US. I doubt the security screeners thought it was unusual he didn't have any luggage. They probably assumed he just checked all his bag at the ticket counter.
The system did not work. They should have flagged him based all the above. The ticket agent should be flogged.
It is my understanding he had a visa but no passport to back it up.
A bunch of educated idiots out there pretending to keep us safe.

 

[bang guy]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199368
you are targeting these individuals as requiring them to provide some sort of extensive background check before flying to the US.
What a crime it would be to have to wait for a database search before entering the US.
I'm also saying that you are 'color blind' if you think only inidividuals from other countries can commit these types of acts.
There you go again, making stuff up that I have never said.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3199583
The thing is, the CIA or anyone else didn't know where this kid was. So regardless if he was hanging out in Yeman is irrelevent. Where the ball was dropped was the CIA didn't just verify whether this kid was in the updated No Fly database so that if he did try flying out, he would be flagged. What's interesting is that Al-Qaida would've known this kid was hot, because it's been reported that the US knew about him since August. So what did Al-Qaida know about Amsterdam security that they were pretty confident this kid could get on a plane with little or no issues? Now that Amsterdam got their hand caught in the cookie jar, they've locked their airport security down. This is why background checks are useless, unless you make it another required document like a Visa to enter or exit a country. Even with that, which worldwide organization decides the parameters for the background check?
That is all a whole other issue but the two go hand in hand. They can be on all the do not fly lists in the world an it isn't going to help if we don't make sure who is boarding the planes.
The United state should set the parameters for searches on those coming into our country even if we have to place our agents at other countries airport gates for US bound flights and allow them the same here.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by Bang Guy
http:///forum/post/3199648
What a crime it would be to have to wait for a database search before entering the US.
There you go again, making stuff up that I have never said.

I have to wait to buy a gun even though those little words "shall not be infringed" are in the Constitution.
Let them wait.....a 30 day waiting period between buying your ticket and flying into the US for all wihtout a valid US passport.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3199732
I have to wait to buy a gun even though those little words "shall not be infringed" are in the Constitution.
Let them wait.....a 30 day waiting period between buying your ticket and flying into the US for all wihtout a valid US passport.
Sounds like a plan to me. Nobody on the planet who isn't a US citizen has the right to fly here. Let em wait.