whats wrong w/ america?!

[1journeyman]

I heard tonight that some people are estimating over 20 million illegal immigrants could get amnesty from this plan.
according to the CIA Factbook, the estimated population of Mexico in 2007 is less than 110 million. Look at the numbers! We're talking about potentially absorbing 20% of Mexico's population.
That's insane.

 

[aztec reef]

yep, that's why i don't believe in amnesty, i think it's just gonna make things worse people here are gonna see some overcrowding.. In California Hispanics are Not the minority anymore.. I lived here in Oregon for more than 10 years and when i first got here you would rarely see hispanics, but the last 5 years it's been real noticeble that Hispanic population has been rapidly increasing..
It took me almost 10 years processsing, paying multiple fines, Keeping a clean criminal record & having a moral character for me to become a US citizen and i believe that should be the minumun for anybody.
Amnesty is like saying : come over now is even easier to work in the US without having to go through a long Naturalization process. Screw that..Everybody needs to EARN it!! Plus i'm sure a lot of people are gonna take advantage of it.. You think Illegal Immigration is a problem now, wait until they give amnesty.. Take it from me, I know my people

I say amnesty is Not the way to go!!

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
....
It took me almost 10 years processsing, paying multiple fines, Keeping a clean criminal record & having a moral character for me to become a US citizen and i believe that should be the minumun for anybody.
Amnesty is like saying : come over now is even easier to work in the US without having to go through a long Naturalization process. Screw that..Everybody needs to EARN it!! Plus i'm sure a lot of people are gonna take advantage of it.. You think Illegal Immigration is a problem now, wait until they give amnesty.. Take it from me, I know my people

I say amnesty is Not the way to go!!
Agreed.

 

[jmick]

It doesn't really matter to me if you agree with some of the things I've said, I admit I tend to sympathize with people (especially the poor who want better lives and are willing to work hard to earn those better lives).
However, I am surprised that I seem to be the only one who faults the US companies who hire illegals, either you agree and simply don't want to admit you agree with me or you fail to see the big picture. It would be interesting to see what would happen if we did manage to solve the problem and how we’d deal with the major work force issue. I do agree that sending prisoners to do some menial labor would be a good thing but in reality, would they really be a motivated efficient work force…if you were forced to work for free would you work hard? The fact of the matter is that this issue is not one that is going to be solved as long as US companies hire illegals and give them the incentive to break our laws.

 

[aztec reef]

That's how i see it Jmick, the FACTS are : you don't have to be a politician to figure it out.. Why can't people see that the solution to this is in the Goverment's hands.
I don't know in which states it is Illegal for employers to check for Citizen/Resident status when applying for a job, But they should make it Legal & MANDATORY to verify status "Nationally" to start with don't you think?
You think the Goverment hasn't thought of that? of course but why haven't they done it?

p.s.
I just watched the spanish news (TELEMUNDO/UNIVISION) 1 minute ago and they were talking about how in PROSPECT PARK, NEW YERSEY is Now consider a Sanctuary for Illegals.(since last friday) How can the Goverment allow that?

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Jmick
I do agree that sending prisoners to do some menial labor would be a good thing but in reality, would they really be a motivated efficient work force…if you were forced to work for free would you work hard?
I'm glad you brought this up. Maybe if we take the satellite TV and weight machines away from convicted felons and kept them locked in cells, they would appreciate working outside once in a while. (it's called paying your debt to society)

 

[socal57che]

There seems to be very little that an employer can do to verify a worker's documents. My wife has people working for her that we believe to be here illegally, but they provided what seemed to be legal documents stating that they are obeying the law. There is no way for her to verify that any of the paperwork submitted was not forged. No way to verify even that they gave the correct name. Employers are held accountable, but left with no support when it comes to verifying prospective employees. Maybe access to Immigration databases is an option. At least that would give you a definite "yes" as far as work elegibility. (there is a growing number of Bulgarians, Polish and Russians in our neighborhood as well) Probably legal, but less likely to be questioned since we seem to be obsessed with the growing Hispanic populus. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by socal57che
There seems to be very little that an employer can do to verify a worker's documents. My wife has people working for her that we believe to be here illegally, but they provided what seemed to be legal documents stating that they are obeying the law. There is no way for her to verify that any of the paperwork submitted was not forged. No way to verify even that they gave the correct name. Employers are held accountable, but left with no support when it comes to verifying prospective employees..

And that's the Immigrants fault?

Cut it like this, Lets' say a minor (of age) walks into a 7/11 store wanting to buy Alcohol/cigarrets, and he kind-of looks old enuf but could also look like he's Not...and the clerk at the 711 fails to ask for I.D, She just ASSumes that "he's old enuf or else he' wouldn't be trying to buy Booz"...
Now, is it the minor's fault? Or the clerk's ? Try that for homework!!

 

[shrimpi]

Originally Posted by aandwrobert
invade mexico
reasons
...
4. we could all use some more corn

I almost actually ROFL when reading this. HAHAHA.
Seriously, I think this is a good place to debate things..... things that everyone disagrees on (for the most part) ...
I think:
migrant workers/illegal immigrants take a part in our society.
without these people, alot of small businesses would never make it. Who else is going to work for 5.00/hr 60hrs a week with no benefits?
however, they also are a 'cheaper choice' and many employers will chose a immigrant over a citizen BECAUSE they are cheaper, thus stealing jobs from citizens.
There are positives and negatives a mile long.
Bottom line? America has plenty of its own 'citizens' that are total dirtbags, criminals, and a drag on the economy.
Maybe the government should focus on the population of unemployed and 'welfare' people. A common phrase is "we cant even take care of our own homeless, why are we taking immigrants?" right? This country grew and built itself upon the immigrating workers and tradesmen. I dont think we will ever 'close the border' or 'stop immigration' although it may seem a good solution.
Maybe proactive measures should be taken instead of looking at negatives of this country. Write a petition or something, maybe every year a restoration project could be done on the 'worse' areas of the country where people could be taught a trade, or help fix roofs that still have blue tarps from the hurricanes. We(america/government) spend alot of our money on crap. regardless of whether or not the 'illegal immigrant' problem is fixed, we have a list of things we need to fix from within. They (immigrants) do impact our country but they are not the cause for 'the bad of america'.
Up against the firing squad,
Shrimpi

 

[aztec reef]

I love it when people say we're stealing the jobs

We're not stealing anything, we're just taking what is being offered..
there's a giver and there's a taker. If someone hands you Lemons what would you do? Nothing or Lemonade.?

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by socal57che
I'm glad you brought this up. Maybe if we take the satellite TV and weight machines away from convicted felons and kept them locked in cells, they would appreciate working outside once in a while. (it's called paying your debt to society)
Again, this is a nice idea and I'd love to see something like this work as I'd like to see the felons give something back to society. Lets face it, they are not in jail because they have a strong work ethic, they are in jail because they wanted to bypass how the rest of mainstream society earns a buck and go the easy route through drugs or robbery or whatever else they are in there for. I don't think being under the sun all day in less then idea conditions would motivate many of them and they'd do as little as possible, that's their nature and this would not be to the benefit of whoever they are working for.

 

[shrimpi]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
I love it when people say we're stealing the jobs

We're not stealing anything, we're just taking what is being offered..
there's a giver and there's a taker. If someone hands you Lemons what would you do? Nothing or Lemonade.?

Im not inferring that I beleive there is any stealing. I just bringing forth opinions that people have (and someone actually told me they felt that way).
And "I LOVE IT" when people take one thing I said out of context of a complicated subject and assume it was a direct derrogatory comment to them.
I personally dont care who works in america or who it pisses off. I was just trying to show some positives and negatives- argument for each side.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
And that's the Immigrants fault?

Cut it like this, Lets' say a minor (of age) walks into a 7/11 store wanting to buy Alcohol/cigarrets, and he kind-of looks old enuf but could also look like he's Not...and the clerk at the 711 fails to ask for I.D, She just ASSumes that "he's old enuf or else he' wouldn't be trying to buy Booz"...
Now, is it the minor's fault? Or the clerk's ? Try that for homework!!

In that case it is the worker's fault. Take that to the next step, however. What if the clerk asked for a document and was handed a fake ID? What if it was illegal for the clerk to ask for ID? In those cases who is to blame?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
I love it when people say we're stealing the jobs

We're not stealing anything, we're just taking what is being offered..
there's a giver and there's a taker. If someone hands you Lemons what would you do? Nothing or Lemonade.?
Look at it the other way... farmers have to have workers. Businesses have to have employees. If there is a shortage of workers businesses will increase pay to draw employees.
A flood of illegal workers keeps pay low and the market saturated. Remove cheap labor and pay increases.
I think it's crazy to believe our economy is dependent on illegal workers.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Look at it the other way... farmers have to have workers. Businesses have to have employees. If there is a shortage of workers businesses will increase pay to draw employees.
A flood of illegal workers keeps pay low and the market saturated. Remove cheap labor and pay increases.
I think it's crazy to believe our economy is dependent on illegal workers.
If we were to eliminate all the illegals then who is going to work all those jobs? What would happen is that they'd have to pay more and the costs for a lot of goods would increase or there would be shortages and then we'd end up paying more again.
Again, for some reason you refuse to put any blame on the companies hiring illegals or the government which allows it (then again, I would not be surprised in many areas if they didn't simply turn their heads because it makes fiscal sense).

 

[jovial]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Again, this is a nice idea and I'd love to see something like this work as I'd like to see the felons give something back to society. Lets face it, they are not in jail because they have a strong work ethic, they are in jail because they wanted to bypass how the rest of mainstream society earns a buck and go the easy route through drugs or robbery or whatever else they are in there for. I don't think being under the sun all day in less then idea conditions would motivate many of them and they'd do as little as possible, that's their nature and this would not be to the benefit of whoever they are working for.
Prisoners thats who. Prison labor has been proven to work, and would work in reducing the lure for people to come here illeagally. You are correct, companies that hire illeagal aliens should be held accountable for breaking the law.
Actually work/release programs are very effective. Many inmates strive to become trustees especially if it means a reduction of their current sentence. Of course they would have to be supervised but the labor costs would be significantly less expensive since their living costs are already absorbed through state/Fed taxes. This system has been in place for years manufacturing products like license plates, if we expand it to agriculture the US could potentially see a large reduction in illeagal immigration. After all a criminal is a criminal, why not use them to give something back to society instead of drain it.
Something else I dont understand, why do the illeagal aliens from Mexico continue to have so many children if they cannot support the ones they already have? Isnt it just plain cruel to deprive a child of a decent life if you dont have the means to provide for them without breaking the law? I dont get it.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
In that case it is the worker's fault. Take that to the next step, however. What if the clerk asked for a document and was handed a fake ID? What if it was illegal for the clerk to ask for ID? In those cases who is to blame?

Both but mostly the business, cause if it's such a huge issue the goverment should make it Legal/Mandatory for business to ask for ID.
Now, where would the minors get that fake ID? i don't think it's Photoshoped , Again i would think that he has conections with "someone" inside of DMV.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Look at it the other way... farmers have to have workers. Businesses have to have employees. If there is a shortage of workers businesses will increase pay to draw employees.
A flood of illegal workers keeps pay low and the market saturated. Remove cheap labor and pay increases.
I think it's crazy to believe our economy is dependent on illegal workers.

Again, it sounds like a good idea but it's Unfortunatly that cotractors/goverment would not agree with you.
If they were to remove all the Illegals right Now, you don't think it will make the Us go into a Hault? Or have any Economy impact?

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by Jovial
Something else I dont understand, why do the illeagal aliens from Mexico continue to have so many children if they cannot support the ones they already have? Isnt it just plain cruel to deprive a child of a decent life if you dont have the means to provide for them without breaking the law? I dont get it.
Here's what you don't get , this people are the poor/ignorant..The reason why they keep having babies it's cause they're Illegal and they don't have access to Plan Parenthood , or places were they give birth control and such..it's the same in Mexico, poor people don't have access to that.. and since Mexico is mostly poor(economically) that's why mexicans are known to have big families..
Its pathetic how people think that all Mexicans are like the ones in East L.A.
have you ever been to mexico around middle class people? ..or had any mexican friends that were educated?.. i'm guessing NOT..
I'm afraid to tell you but most of the people on Welfare are poor black/white Americans and if there's any Hispanics they're mostlikely that they were born here.(therefore are Not mexican Illegals) remenber Illegals can't get foodstamps or be on Welfare..

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
Its pathetic how people think that all Mexicans are like the ones in East L.A.
have you ever been to mexico around middle class people? ..or had any mexican friends that were educated?.. i'm guessing NOT..
Been to Mexico several times. Born in Laredo, Texas. Lived in Corpus Christi where it was about 60% Hispanic. So I feel I'm more familiar with this issue than several people posting here.
Our economy would not halt if we exported every illegal today...
You folks keep arguinb both sides of the coin. On the one hand you're saying these illegals are low income, uneducated people working jobs that no one wants. Then on the other side you argue it's "big businesses" fault. Which is it? You can't argue both sides.
I'm not racist. I'm not anti-Hispanic. I'm anti-illegal; and it happens that the vast majority of those in my state are from Mexico. I'm anti-Mexico (I refuse to vaction there anymore) because they are intentionally exporting their lower class to us instead of cleaning their own house and addressing the issue.
I said early on in this thread that everyone should have to prove citizenship to get a job, and if someone intentionally hired an illegal I was all for jail time for them. It's a matter of numbers, however. There are millions of illegals in our country. As I said before, the ENTIRE population of Mexico is less than 110 million. Mexico has successfully exported 10% of their population for us to deal with... That's just wrong.