Yes, YET ANOTHER POLITICAL THREAD! lol

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2710748
Running ethanol is cleaner, producing it isn't real effective yet but it can be. If they switch over to the non grain version it makes more sense. You are convering what is otherwise going to end up in a landfill into fuel. Not a bad deal all in all. If we are using wind, solar nuclear etc. to generate the electricity used to make the ethanol it's a good deal all around.
I disagree according to stanford it is dirtier.
"It's not green in terms of air pollution," said study author Mark Jacobson, a Stanford University civil and environmental engineering professor. "If you want to use ethanol, fine, but don't do it based on health grounds. It's no better than gasoline, apparently slightly worse."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...naturalscience
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
I raise this question. Some please explain to me how Obama's plan will produce energy independence and lower gas prices?
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2710759
I disagree according to stanford it is dirtier.
"It's not green in terms of air pollution," said study author Mark Jacobson, a Stanford University civil and environmental engineering professor. "If you want to use ethanol, fine, but don't do it based on health grounds. It's no better than gasoline, apparently slightly worse."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...naturalscience
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
No but it can be reduced price

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles...questions.html
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2710812
No but it can be reduced price

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles...questions.html
Simply because the costs are spread out and not reflected in the price of gas. (however I still don't think adding another step in the refining process would decrease price, but hey I've been asked to swallow bigger bull)
You have subsidies, as well as a significant increase in the price of grains, which is also reflected in the prices of meat since they feed chicken and cows grains
Which some estimates have put the increase in food products at around 20%
The simple fact is our market works, when it isn't controlled with by the government. And if ethanol was a viable source of energy, then they wouldn't need a MASSIVE propaganda campaign as well as government subsidies to be brought to the market.
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2710894
Simply because the costs are spread out and not reflected in the price of gas. (however I still don't think adding another step in the refining process would decrease price, but hey I've been asked to swallow bigger bull)
You have subsidies, as well as a significant increase in the price of grains, which is also reflected in the prices of meat since they feed chicken and cows grains
Which some estimates have put the increase in food products at around 20%
The simple fact is our market works, when it isn't controlled with by the government. And if ethanol was a viable source of energy, then they wouldn't need a MASSIVE propaganda campaign as well as government subsidies to be brought to the market.

Grains based ethanol is a bust, at least as a fuel

The other can be viable. It's just gotta be done right. I think pushing it's use in areas where it is economically feasable to produce it makes sense but like most other things a one size fits all approach isn't the best solution. I think a regional ethanol plan would make sense. Same with Biodiesel. You can make it from old cooking oil and fatty waste from meat and poultry processing. Making it from those sources makes sense. Making it from crops doesn't. Same deal with the ethanol. The stuff you can make from yard waste and crop wastes makes sense. Not sure if some of the other feedstocks like sugar makes sense or not.
But, If you use some Biofuels, some synfuels combined with higher mileage cars we buy ourselves some time until Hydrogen or some other truely alternative fuel can be developed.
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
http:///forum/post/2706874
Voting for McCain, huh... he's truly a class act.

http://therealmccain.com/pac/?utm_source=rgemail
What bothers me about this ad is that it's all second hand from reporters. I want to see proof from McCain directly... not what everyone else is saying about him. I'm even a bit surprised that this is even considered viable. I know McCain has made mistakes and contradictions, but at least he's not Obama. What an idiot.
Also, fill your tires with more air to save our dependency on oil? What a Friggin idiot!!! Yeah, that will really solve the oil crisis. Air. In tires.
Don't get me started...
 

yearofthenick

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2710340
The simple fact is, we can't have "nuclear" cars. We already HEAVILY subside sugarcane (what brazil uses) The simple fact remains our economic system promotes good ideas through competition. If someone really had a "water car" or whatever, it would be mass produced. Because people would jump on it.
The technology isn't developed or even invented. And that will take way longer than even using Obama's 10 year number.
Google the "FCX Clarity" by Honda. Hydrogen-fueled vehicle. Exhaust is pure drinkable water. Hydrogen is infinitely available.
So Yes, the technology is there. In fact if you live in Southern California, then for $600/month you can lease one - free refills at the hydrogen pumping stations
 

litoallie

Member
Honestly, I am republican all the way! McCain. Obama claims that McCain's recent campaign is "negative". What a hypocrite, in SC he was broadcasting all over the radio about the "negative" stuff about Hilary. Also, what sort of change is he going to implement? Hitler style or American style? America had ALWAYS wanted change, but can we adapt to the new changes?! We don't even know what he wants to change exactly.. Is he going to tax health care? legalize abortion? legalize maryjane? How about the death penalty?!
America needs some solutions to problems. Obama is a great public speaker, I agree. But he does not fit into the president's shoe.. not exactly. I don't know.. I just don't want him as president of the US.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2710188
Obama can not "gut" the Constitution... as you put it... Secondly, Bush has already violated the Constitution in regards to the wire-tapping, not to mention International law by engaging in the Iraq war. And yes, race does play a role in this election in the minds of voters whom there are many that will not vote for him based on his race. Racism is a very real issue today and it has not gone anywhere...
Umm, huh?
Look at what you wrote here Rylan. you say Obama cannot gut the Constitution, then turn around and accuse the current President of doing so?
That said,
*please show me where in the Constitution foreign terror suspects are afforded Constitutional rights.
*Read the Congressional Authorization to use force against Iraq. Then show me where in the Constitution we must answer to "international" law. Further, let's not forget the reason we went to war with Iraq was over Saddam violating international law...
I agree race plays a roll in this election. Just look at how one-sided the black vote was against Hillary. Just look at how many times we've heard that this is an "historic" election and "it's time for a black man to be President". For once you and i agree; Racism is an issue today.
*
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2710255
.... You skipped the part about the Constitution... did Bush violate it or not?
He did not. Feel free to look up the constitution online, read it for yourself, then come back and post the article and section if you find otherwise...
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2711163
Google the "FCX Clarity" by Honda. Hydrogen-fueled vehicle. Exhaust is pure drinkable water. Hydrogen is infinitely available.
So Yes, the technology is there. In fact if you live in Southern California, then for $600/month you can lease one - free refills at the hydrogen pumping stations
yeah, we've previously had this discussion, just a little fyi, car and driver listed driving costs, they are higher than my 30 mph honda at 4 dollar a gallon gas and cost 6 figures. What I've been saying if you have been listening is that the honda is not a viable option, unless you want to pay for it in taxes have the government lose half you tax then subsidize it...
 

reefraff

Active Member
Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/2711163
Google the "FCX Clarity" by Honda. Hydrogen-fueled vehicle. Exhaust is pure drinkable water. Hydrogen is infinitely available.
So Yes, the technology is there. In fact if you live in Southern California, then for $600/month you can lease one - free refills at the hydrogen pumping stations

Only a limited number of people will get those for now. Honda is losing a lot of money on the deal. It's gonna be a long time before there are enough refilling stations and the cars have a long enough range to be practical for most people.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2711288
Only a limited number of people will get those for now. Honda is losing a lot of money on the deal. It's gonna be a long time before there are enough refilling stations and the cars have a long enough range to be practical for most people.
That means PR stunt. That isn't talking about the subsidies that they are recieving for developing "green" technology.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
I"m not dogging, well maybe a little bit, But if you watch the news, you would have seen Pelosi fighting like a girl, to keep any sort of vote for drilling off the floor, in her own words, to "I'm trying to save the planet." However I do find it ironic, that this article Shows that she is telling her own democrats that if it means the difference between winning and losing, they can support drilling.
I mean come on if you really believe you're saving the planet, she seems willing to trade that for well keeping democrats in power
.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2710265
Not classic republican answer, unless you want to say that the republicans actually believe in classic Freedman economics.
Here is the deal. If the growth in supply outpaces the growth in demand then price will go down. Why won't that concept get through your head?
Heck even the insane Pelosi is trying to increase supply by other means, (releasing oil for the oil reserve, the problem is we can't release enough to really change prices). IF you want to talk bandaid there you go...
You know what is funny the feds make as much from big oil as big oil makes from oil, and they don't have any risk. Got to love a politician going out and saying we need to charge em more, so they can in turn charge you more, then pay for the bureaucracy, then pay you a grand, it is just silly, moronic Jimmy Carter style economics and we all know what happens when we let the Jimmy Carters of the world in charge.
Brazil uses Sugar to make ethenol, we can't use produce sugar without major subsities because it isn't worth it. So, yeah, we could less efficiently produce sugar and spend a fortune, but frankly 4 dollar oil is better than trying to turn sugar into fuel, that would be more expensive. The beauty of our economic system is that it promotes efficiency while not promoting wasteful spending, and that is why we as tax payers have to fund subsities for silly ideas like using corn to produce oil. It his us three times, through taxes, through increase fuel costs and increased food costs. Brilliant. Or we could drill for more oil, which lowers price, helps local economies, and we don't use our own food to drive. This is just silly, there is NO LOGICAL way for Obama's hair brained carter style plans to work, We have been down this road IT DOESN"T WORK so quit wasting our times.
Something people don't mention about Carter, is that he was calling for this 30 years ago.. that we need to revamp our energy consumption and find alternatives...
But you are missing the point... The Brazilians found a solution to their current energy problem and dependence on oil. The answer for us will not be sugarcane; however, if we took the same approach to the problem as they did... we could solve our energy crisis.
And as far as getting something through my head... lets talk about a common Obama theme... "The Urgency of Now"... I understand that if supply increases ahead of demand than price will go down... But how do we make this possible? Any domestic drilling will take a minumum of 8-10 years to hit the market. That is too long, and in addition to that if we continue at the current rate of consumption along with the rest of the World... demand will continue to outpace supply... The only viable solution to today's problem which includes oil, is to get more of it from current production sources such as the Middle East who is not at full production capablility.
However, Middle Eastern oil producers such as Saudi Arabia are fearfulll that they have passed peak production levels and that in 30 years or so, the oil will be gone... So I have now come to the conclusion of two things.... Cities like Dubai are being created because they have to use this current flow of money to create future economic opportunities. 2nd, they are regulating the market (supply and price) much like that of diamonds to increase their profits and to lower production.
The only way out is renewable energy, which unlike oil it will not run out, or be increasing more expensive to find.
 

stdreb27

Active Member

Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2711388
Something people don't mention about Carter, is that he was calling for this 30 years ago.. that we need to revamp our energy consumption and find alternatives...
But you are missing the point... The Brazilians found a solution to their current energy problem and dependence on oil. The answer for us will not be sugarcane; however, if we took the same approach to the problem as they did... we could solve our energy crisis.
And as far as getting something through my head... lets talk about a common Obama theme... "The Urgency of Now"... I understand that if supply increases ahead of demand than price will go down... But how do we make this possible? Any domestic drilling will take a minumum of 8-10 years to hit the market. That is too long, and in addition to that if we continue at the current rate of consumption along with the rest of the World... demand will continue to outpace supply... The only viable solution to today's problem which includes oil, is to get more of it from current production sources such as the Middle East who is not at full production capablility.
However, Middle Eastern oil producers such as Saudi Arabia are fearfulll that they have passed peak production levels and that in 30 years or so, the oil will be gone... So I have now come to the conclusion of two things.... Cities like Dubai are being created because they have to use this current flow of money to create future economic opportunities. 2nd, they are regulating the market (supply and price) much like that of diamonds to increase their profits and to lower production.
The only way out is renewable energy, which unlike oil it will not run out, or be increasing more expensive to find.
Once again, how does obama's plan do anything of the sort. And in case you having noticed. Brazil is sitting on two of the biggest finds in the world AND ACTUALLY DRILLING FOR THEIR OIL!

Here is a little problem, it is two fold, drilling for oil is not 10 years out, more like 5, but either way SO? Why is ten years an issue? Ten years ago clinton vetoed a bill that would be helping us now? Also realistically, how far out is a non-oil based transportation system. It is more than 10 years. You moan and groan about oil being so far away, but propose something that doesn't even exist yet. Yeah, that is what I call brilliant.
 

rylan1

Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2710643
Rylan, do you understand that as far as wind, solar and nuclear they are not a competing technology with oil? Those are sources of electric power generation. There is only a fractional percentage of our electric power that comes from petroleum based products. Natural gas, coal and hydro are our main sources.
Biodiesel, ethenol (the right kind) and in some cases natural gas are the only alternatives to oil as far as transportation right now. Those will have a small effect for now but the wind, solar etc. are all good things we should be developing but it wont affect our oil use other than what it takes to mine the coal use in coal fired plants.
Once battery technology makes fully electric cars more practical they (wind, solar, nuke) will have an indirect impact. But again that technology is still years away.
At this point I think the hot ticket is Diesel powered hybrids. A turbodiesel VW gets much better mileage than even a Toyota Prius. If the TD technology were married to the Hybrid system 100 MPG may be a reality for a small car.
Thing is none of that will have an effect anytime soon. Not enough Diesel power cars in this country right now for the Biodiesel to make a big difference. Pure electric cars are too expensive right now and don't have the range/recharge time to make them a viable for anything but short city trips anyway. Ethanol would be doable if the politicians got a backbone and would kill the subsidies for corn based and shift to celluostic based ethanol.
I am all for pursuing the alternatives. We are going to need them but for now we also need the oil and a lot of it.
Diesel is a byproduct of gas right? I agree that more diesel is an option.. however more diesel vehicles mean more gasoline production which is the problem... Have you seen the price of diesel lately? There are also better crops for ethanol than corn... You can also convert trash to ethanol... Electric cars such as the Telsa are high performance and costs $0.02 per mile, and get about 220 miles per "charge" The technology is there, but automakers have not produced the vehicles in mass quanities. If we put the same effort into alternatives as oil.... we could get to where we need to be in a relatively short time.
I'm not saying cut oil all together, but if we cut oil use by 25% - 40% in 20 years.... that would have a drastic effect.
 

rylan1

Active Member

Originally Posted by stdreb27
http:///forum/post/2711397
Once again, how does obama's plan do anything of the sort. And in case you having noticed. Brazil is sitting on two of the biggest finds in the world AND ACTUALLY DRILLING FOR THEIR OIL!

Here is a little problem, it is two fold, drilling for oil is not 10 years out, more like 5, but either way SO? Why is ten years an issue? Ten years ago clinton vetoed a bill that would be helping us now? Also realistically, how far out is a non-oil based transportation system. It is more than 10 years. You moan and groan about oil being so far away, but propose something that doesn't even exist yet. Yeah, that is what I call brilliant.
When did Brazil find oil?
Answer is in 2007..and that is not really relative to the discussion because their vehicles are independent of oil...
Your 5 year timeline is also very optimistic.... and its after an oil source is found. So you are talking more in best case scenarios... Either way, the oil we could produce from places like Anwar would have little to no effect on the price per barrel we no face.
 

stdreb27

Active Member
Originally Posted by Rylan1
http:///forum/post/2711409
Diesel is a byproduct of gas right? I agree that more diesel is an option.. however more diesel vehicles mean more gasoline production which is the problem... Have you seen the price of diesel lately? There are also better crops for ethanol than corn... You can also convert trash to ethanol... Electric cars such as the Telsa are high performance and costs $0.02 per mile, and get about 220 miles per "charge" The technology is there, but automakers have not produced the vehicles in mass quanities. If we put the same effort into alternatives as oil.... we could get to where we need to be in a relatively short time.
I'm not saying cut oil all together, but if we cut oil use by 25% - 40% in 20 years.... that would have a drastic effect.
But if we are importing what 60-70% of our oil we are not going to be "cutting our dependance" on foreign oil.
 
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