Heres how to REMOVE ICH from FISH safely!

crimzy

Active Member
Just for the sake of argument...
There are really only two reasons why some people want to discount any possibility that this med is effective:
(1) People with QT's realize that others achieve a healthy display without the trouble or expense of a QT. They get very sad.

(2) The experts realize that if there is an effective medication then people may not think they're quite so smart anymore. Even moreso after they've been arguing against the effectiveness of every med for years. To hear about experiences that may suggest they are wrong is very threatening. Again they get sad.

So in the interest of keeping everyone happy I say to QT until the cows come home. Believing these blanket rules about aquarium chemistry and fish doctoring is the only way people will be happy.

Just don't get too sad when the next blasphemist comes around to say that this med worked for him/her. Don't worry the world will still be flat.
 

rbaldino

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
(1) People with QT's realize that others achieve a healthy display without the trouble or expense of a QT. They get very sad.

There are enough things in the world to be sad about without worrying about what someone else does with their aquarium. And running a QT certainly isn't going to make me feel bad about myself.
Originally Posted by crimzy

(2) The experts realize that if there is an effective medication then people may not think they're quite so smart anymore. Even moreso after they've been arguing against the effectiveness of every med for years. To hear about experiences that may suggest they are wrong is very threatening. Again they get sad.

Aren't you just as guilty of trying to sound smart, like you've figured out something the rest of us haven't?
Considering the sheer volume of posts concerning ich and the horror stories about tank wipe-outs, I'd say the QT crowd is doing quite a bit better than the med crowd.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
Just for the sake of argument...
There are really only two reasons why some people want to discount any possibility that this med is effective:...
Crimzy, for the record, do you believe:
1. It's ok to treat a reef tank with antibiodics
2. Bacteria infections lead to a major ich outbreak
3. Parasites are not visible in copper treated water
 

nigerbang

Active Member
Like said before..If the meds work for you...Great
. Keep up the good work..I just not one to pour Hot Pepper Extract into my tank..and with my QT set up...If anything happens to go wrong..I dont have to worry about what reef safe, what will poison the water...If I wanted to treat with meds..I could do it in my QT without comprimising my DT
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by crimzy
Just for the sake of argument...
There are really only two reasons why some people want to discount any possibility that this med is effective:
(1) People with QT's realize that others achieve a healthy display without the trouble or expense of a QT. They get very sad.

(2) The experts realize that if there is an effective medication then people may not think they're quite so smart anymore. Even moreso after they've been arguing against the effectiveness of every med for years. To hear about experiences that may suggest they are wrong is very threatening. Again they get sad.

You can use that old debater's trick of narrowing the possibilities to the one's you like, but that stopped working in high school. There is at least a third possibility that you ignored - that they are right.
 

mujtba

Member
BOTTOM LINE: don't knock it, till you try it.. thats like me saying 'QT IS NOT GOING TO WORK. THE MINUTE I PUT MY FISH BACK TO MY DT, HE WILL GET STRESSED AND ICH OUT AGAIN, SO I NEED TO DOSE MEDS WEEKLY TO KEEP IT ICH FREE'...
it's like most of you are so thick headed to realize that there just may, just slightly, might, tiny bit be a possibility that a medication can work! Maybe some sincere scientist figured out something you guys didn't. Maybe someones IQ is higher than yours. I mean, we can do a heart transplant and remove thousands of micro arteries successfully, we are at a stage where we can cloan a goat, we can use laser surgery to get 20/20 vision, we all have cell phones, we sent a machine to mars, we have evolved so much so fast. Imagine if everyone around the world thought like some of you reefers? Where would we stand right now? What if everyone said there is NO WAY to do a heart transplant and all we can do is let your body cure it. Some of us just are so stubborn to feel that just MAYBE there could be someone studying ICH full time and figured it out! Or maybe crimzy is right, you invested too much $$ and time in your QT, that it irks you to see someone spend $30 on medicine and cure ICH in 5 days!

Im on my FIFTH week and tank looks healthy as ever!!! Hows your QT setups going? How many tanks are in your home? They also said you cannot run a tank without a sump successfully- me, Im on a beautiful sumpless system with just one 150g tank in the home. I don't live in an aquarium like some of my peers. My aquarium is in my home. On that note, do whatever floats your boat. If I find out something that excelerates the growth of corals and brings out their natural colors- my lips are sealed!
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
BOTTOM LINE: don't knock it, till you try it.. thats like me saying 'QT IS NOT GOING TO WORK. THE MINUTE I PUT MY FISH BACK TO MY DT, HE WILL GET STRESSED AND ICH OUT AGAIN, SO I NEED TO DOSE MEDS WEEKLY TO KEEP IT ICH FREE'...
That can't happen in my tank. I run a QT. I understand the life cycle of Ich. There is NO ICH in my tank. So that's not an issue. From your post, it seems you believe this medication replaces proper QT. There are a lot of reasons other than Ich to QT....
Mujtba, let me ask you the same questions I asked Crimzy:
1. It's ok to treat a reef tank with antibiodics
2. Bacteria infections lead to a major ich outbreak
3. Parasites are not visible in copper treated water
Those are three statements taken directly from the webpage of Chem Marin.
You say your tank is "healthy as ever" yet your clam just died. I certainly can't prove cause and affect, nor can you prove it otherwise. I can with certainty say, however, that a Nass. snail didn't eat a healthy clam....
 

mujtba

Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
That can't happen in my tank. I run a QT. I understand the life cycle of Ich. There is NO ICH in my tank. So that's not an issue. From your post, it seems you believe this medication replaces proper QT. There are a lot of reasons other than Ich to QT....
Mujtba, let me ask you the same questions I asked Crimzy:
1. It's ok to treat a reef tank with antibiodics
2. Bacteria infections lead to a major ich outbreak
3. Parasites are not visible in copper treated water
Those are three statements taken directly from the webpage of Chem Marin.
You say your tank is "healthy as ever" yet your clam just died. I certainly can't prove cause and affect, nor can you prove it otherwise. I can with certainty say, however, that a Nass. snail didn't eat a healthy clam....
My clam could have died by being unhealthy.. it was purchased less than 2 weeks ago.. my other clam ate my hippo.. so do you think its a possibility that the clam was just unhealthy from the LFS? My comments were not targeted to you, since you are the ICH guru.
you claim theres NO ICH in your tank. I can tell you how many people say ICH is always in the tank! whos right, whos wrong? like i said, do what floats your boat... I had my tank for 4yrs.. during my recent intro of my sailfin, I saw the ICH come about.. prior to that, ive been great..
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
My clam could have died by being unhealthy.. it was purchased less than 2 weeks ago.. my other clam ate my hippo.. so do you think its a possibility that the clam was just unhealthy from the LFS? My comments were not targeted to you, since you are the ICH guru.
you claim theres NO ICH in your tank. I can tell you how many people say ICH is always in the tank! whos right, whos wrong? like i said, do what floats your boat... I had my tank for 4yrs.. during my recent intro of my sailfin, I saw the ICH come about.. prior to that, ive been great..
Your clam certainly could have been unhealthy. No question. It also could have died from your treatment. As Beth pointed out, thousands of folks read these threads. I want to make sure folks see that while you say everything is fine, you did in fact lose a filter feeding invert.
I'm not an Ich guru by any means and I don't want to come across that way. Unfortunately, however, many people don't bother to understand what Ich is. For many, Ich is some kind of magical creature that spontaneously generates in their tank and is a way of live... You asked "who is right?" I am. SW tanks, it QT is practiced correctly, can be 100% Ich free.
Mujtba, if it works for you great.... If your tank is actually Ich free awesome. To me, the questionable ideas and info posted on Chem Marin's webpage make me question everything these folks say.
 

jtrzerocool

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
I had my tank for 4yrs.. during my recent intro of my sailfin, I saw the ICH come about...
great reason to QT before you put the fish in thr DT
 

mujtba

Member
theres more than 1 product on chem marins page. his site is so sloppy.. you have to read it ALL thoroughly to see what he speaks of and refers to. i was confused at first too, til i read it all.. he talks about several products in one breath and it loses people.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
theres more than 1 product on chem marins page. his site is so sloppy.. you have to read it ALL thoroughly to see what he speaks of and refers to. i was confused at first too, til i read it all.. he talks about several products in one breath and it loses people.
I carefully read it. Besides, if he is inaccurate about some products I'm not going to believe he's 100% accurate on others.
He states bacterial infections lead to Ich...
 

renogaw

Active Member
absolutely false. if you do not have ich in your system, your fish cannot get ich. PERIOD.
that's like saying you can get AIDS by sleeping with someone who doesnt have it
 

mujtba

Member
like i said, EVERY other person says ICH IS ALWAYS IN THE TANK!!!! cmon now MR KNOWITALLS!! keep up w me!
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
bacterial infections lead to STRESS, which leads to ICH... yes its true.
As Renogaw explained, this is incorrect.
Ich is a parasite. Stressed fish can be more prone to Ich, but stress does not equal Ich. That is a myth that's been around since before the parasite was studied and understood.
 

1journeyman

Active Member
Originally Posted by mujtba
like i said, EVERY other person says ICH IS ALWAYS IN THE TANK!!!! cmon now MR KNOWITALLS!! keep up w me!
Fine... explain to me what Ich is and how it got into my tank...
 

renogaw

Active Member
from one of my favorite websites:
Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?
There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.
C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.
If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present.
Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996c). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".
If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites.
If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.
The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.
Does stress cause "Ich"?
Stress and poor water conditions do not cause marine "Ich", although they will lower a fish's resistance to infection and impair their immune system. If C. irritans is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter what how stressed a fish may be, it cannot get infected. In a tank where parasites are present, stressed fish are more likely to show signs of "Ich" before more healthy fish, but the healthy fish are just as likely to become infected as the numbers of parasites increase. Those fish species that are less susceptible to "Ich" or those individuals that have an acquired immunity, may show no signs and may not get infected.
 

renogaw

Active Member
or, if you'd like to follow up on real research, read these articles:
References
Bunkley-Williams L. and Williams E.H. 1994. Disease caused by Trichodina spheroidesi and Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) in wild coral reef fishes. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:360-361.
Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet Chelon labrosus as an experimental host. J Parasitol 80:288-292.
Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. Cryotocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): photoperiod and transmission in marine fish. Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom 74:535-542.
Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1995. Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): acquired protective immunity in the thick-lipped mullet, Chelon labrosus. Fish & Shellfish Immunology 5(6):459-468.
Cheung P.J., Nigrelli R.F. and Ruggieri G.D. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951. J. Fish Dis. 2:93-97.
Colorni A. 1985. Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata. Dis. Aquat. Org. 1:19-22.
Colorni A. 1987. Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control. Aquaculture 67(1-2):236-237.
Delbeek J.C. and Sprung J. 1994. The Reef Aquarium Volume 1. Ricordea Publishing, Coconut Grove, Florida. 544pp.
Dickerson H.W. and Clark T.G. 1996. Immune response of fishes to ciliates. Annual Review of Fish Diseases 6:107-120.
Dickerson H.W. and Dawe D.L. 1995. Icthyophythirius multifiliis and Cryptocaryon irritans (Phylum Ciliophora) In: P T K Woo (ed.) Fish Diseases and Disorders. Volume 1: Protozoan and Metazoan Infections. CAB International, Wallingford, Oxon. pp 181-227.
Diggles B.K. and Lester R.J. 1996. Influence of temperature and host species on the development of Cryptocaryon irritans. J Parasitol 82:45-51.
Diggles B.K. and Lester R.J. 1996. Variation in the development of two isolates of Cryptocaryon irritans. J Parasitol 82:384-388.
Grutter A.S. 2000. Ontogenetic variation in the diet of the cleaner fish Labroides dimidiatus and its ecological consequences. Mar. Ecol. Prog. Ser. 197:241-246.
Ruppert E.E. and Barnes R.D. 1994. Invertebrate Zoology. Saunders College Publishing, Orlando, FL. 1056pp.
Yoshinaga T. and Dickerson H.W. 1994. Laboratory propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951 on saltwater-adapted black mollies Poecilia latipinna. J. Aquat. Anim. Health 6:197-201.
Wilkie D.W. and Gordin H. 1969. Outbreak of cryptocaryoniasis in marine aquaria at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. California Fish and Game 55:227-236.
Wright A. and Colorni A. 2002. Taxonomic re-assignment of Cryptocaryon irritans , a marine fish parasite.. European Journal of Protistology 37(4):375-378.
 
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