Put up or shut up!
- Thread starter nm reef
- Start date
S
shouse
Guest
yes big thanx!
i just learned so much i do even know what i learned...:notsure:
so your saying you use a fluidized reactor with Rowaphos media to help eliminate the phosphate? Where can you buy a fluidized reactor?
i just learned so much i do even know what i learned...:notsure:
so your saying you use a fluidized reactor with Rowaphos media to help eliminate the phosphate? Where can you buy a fluidized reactor?
steveweast
Member
I really don't want this to sound as "the only way" to accomplish a reef.... I can only relate my experiences and philosophies.
First of all, phosphate removing media is nothing new. There are two basic types... the aluminum based ones (usually white beads) and the iron based ones (usually a black, muddy looking material). The aluminum ones are the easiest to use; but, there has been evidence that they leach Al into the water and will also leach back their phosphate load when it reaches its capacity. The iron based ones will do neither....but, will clump together into a solid brick if not run in a fluidized reactor.
Fluidized reactors are available at any online site...lifequard makes one of the more popular ones and they aren't terribly expensive. I use a rather expensive and large one ( Deltec);but, that's because my system is so large. The idea of these reactors is to flow the water from the bottom up... instead of from the top down...this will keep the media in suspension and constantly moving for an extremely high contact time....no channeling through the media can occur. You can fluidize other things too... calcium reactor media, carbon, and even sand for fish only biological filtration... the concept has been around a long time.
My philosophy has always been more in line with the bare-bottom reefers...liverock, high flow, and skimmimg. Only, I hate the look of bare-bottom tanks. My solution is to have a shallow layer that I vacuum and stir. When I stir the sand, there is very little cloudiness created because there is very little detritus in the sand...which is the whole idea. As I vacuum, sand is removed from the tank each time...over time, I have to replace it back to the one inch or so level. Since my tank's biological filtration comes from the liverock, it doesn't matter what I do to the sand....the sand is well aerated through my stirings and, as a result, never gets those toxic hydrogen sufide anoxic zones like DSB's always seem to get. Another reason that I replace the sand is that phosphate readily binds with the sand and will only be released by bacterial action (again, why I don't like DSB's).... by removing sand each time, I'm also phosphate exporting.
One suggestion for all... don't be cafeteria reefers...one of these and a lttle of that. Pick a philosophy that you're comfortable with and go with that. There are many ways to set up a reef... each with its plusses and negatives.
First of all, phosphate removing media is nothing new. There are two basic types... the aluminum based ones (usually white beads) and the iron based ones (usually a black, muddy looking material). The aluminum ones are the easiest to use; but, there has been evidence that they leach Al into the water and will also leach back their phosphate load when it reaches its capacity. The iron based ones will do neither....but, will clump together into a solid brick if not run in a fluidized reactor.
Fluidized reactors are available at any online site...lifequard makes one of the more popular ones and they aren't terribly expensive. I use a rather expensive and large one ( Deltec);but, that's because my system is so large. The idea of these reactors is to flow the water from the bottom up... instead of from the top down...this will keep the media in suspension and constantly moving for an extremely high contact time....no channeling through the media can occur. You can fluidize other things too... calcium reactor media, carbon, and even sand for fish only biological filtration... the concept has been around a long time.
My philosophy has always been more in line with the bare-bottom reefers...liverock, high flow, and skimmimg. Only, I hate the look of bare-bottom tanks. My solution is to have a shallow layer that I vacuum and stir. When I stir the sand, there is very little cloudiness created because there is very little detritus in the sand...which is the whole idea. As I vacuum, sand is removed from the tank each time...over time, I have to replace it back to the one inch or so level. Since my tank's biological filtration comes from the liverock, it doesn't matter what I do to the sand....the sand is well aerated through my stirings and, as a result, never gets those toxic hydrogen sufide anoxic zones like DSB's always seem to get. Another reason that I replace the sand is that phosphate readily binds with the sand and will only be released by bacterial action (again, why I don't like DSB's).... by removing sand each time, I'm also phosphate exporting.
One suggestion for all... don't be cafeteria reefers...one of these and a lttle of that. Pick a philosophy that you're comfortable with and go with that. There are many ways to set up a reef... each with its plusses and negatives.
S
shouse
Guest
Yes, but in your offense you have a tank, and amazing at that, to back up your words. I also have never heard what your stating and it's quite interesting. If it's going great for you why not share your method with everyone and you might be surprised who would want to try and replicate your system.
also for all us newbs out there, can you explain simply what all u have running on your tank filtration wise.
also for all us newbs out there, can you explain simply what all u have running on your tank filtration wise.
steveweast
Member
shouse....true...but being "preachy" is not in my nature. The filtration on my tank (biological) is just liverock. I also run (4) Precision Marine skimmers ....that's it...oh...plus some carbon to polish the water sometimes.
jwtrojan44... you're missing the point. The sand has nothing to do with filtration...it's for aesthetics only...so, there's no need for live sand, pods, or any other sand critters since there is no waste there to break down. The sand I use is just a crushed coral sand that looks nice and isn't too fine as to create a sandstorm from my closed loop. I use Carib Sea... I think it is called Fiji pink.
jwtrojan44... you're missing the point. The sand has nothing to do with filtration...it's for aesthetics only...so, there's no need for live sand, pods, or any other sand critters since there is no waste there to break down. The sand I use is just a crushed coral sand that looks nice and isn't too fine as to create a sandstorm from my closed loop. I use Carib Sea... I think it is called Fiji pink.
S
shouse
Guest
2nd that Melody, havent heard about this till now.
I appreciate you sharing your methods and advice.
I appreciate you sharing your methods and advice.
steveweast
Member
There are two things that have always bothered me that are in the spirit of this thread that I would like to say before I leave.
1) everyone should try to acquire as much information as possible if they are interested in keeping a reef. There are many other sources of information out there and many more bulletin boards with some pretty accomplished aquarists. I visit this site often.. but, I visit many other sites as well to broaden my awareness as much as possible. It just takes a little searching.
2) It seems these days that there are alot of "experts" on the bulletin boards or who write books. I have yet to see one of these "experts" tanks that even begin to approach the level that has been achieved by hobbiests on this and other boards... sometimes I wish they would put up or shut up...but, they seem to have more motivation in selling books or expanding their egos at the hobbiest's expense. Now that I think about it, there are a couple of experts that have accomplished systems.... Mike Palleta and Steve Tyree come to mind...but, they seldom preach reef methodolgy...but, if they did, they could at least back it up. I guess I'm off the soap box now.... bye all....
1) everyone should try to acquire as much information as possible if they are interested in keeping a reef. There are many other sources of information out there and many more bulletin boards with some pretty accomplished aquarists. I visit this site often.. but, I visit many other sites as well to broaden my awareness as much as possible. It just takes a little searching.
2) It seems these days that there are alot of "experts" on the bulletin boards or who write books. I have yet to see one of these "experts" tanks that even begin to approach the level that has been achieved by hobbiests on this and other boards... sometimes I wish they would put up or shut up...but, they seem to have more motivation in selling books or expanding their egos at the hobbiest's expense. Now that I think about it, there are a couple of experts that have accomplished systems.... Mike Palleta and Steve Tyree come to mind...but, they seldom preach reef methodolgy...but, if they did, they could at least back it up. I guess I'm off the soap box now.... bye all....
S
shouse
Guest
I'm finding it hard to find online stores that carry a good fluidized reactor. I would assume if one were to go this kind of route a good fluidized reactor would be important. Anyone have a few good suggestions on where to buy aquarium equiipment that SWF.com does not carry?? Mainly the fluidized reactor.
beachbumtx
Member
Hopefully not all BB's are bad :notsure:
friction32
Member
Hello.....I must say that this thread is great.I havent been at it that long but have used the tried and true methods that NM is talking about and IMO I think I have the makings of what will be a beautiful reef system soon.Being a family guy with a wife and 3 kids the expense is why it is going slowly.Some of which I have saved by building my own stand and canopy.($75) and getting a great deal on a new tank.Usingmyknowledge ecetricity and putting up 4x65W retrofit system bought on e-bay.My tank might not be as beautiful as some that are posted here but I had to show it anyway.
Who can say THANKS enough to guys like NMReef..BangGuy....Kip...Skilos..Etc.
To all of you my HAT is off..... THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who can say THANKS enough to guys like NMReef..BangGuy....Kip...Skilos..Etc.
To all of you my HAT is off..... THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
friction32
Member
2nd pic during set-up
bdhough
Active Member
in all fairness to he who shant be named that picture is quite old. i remember seeing it months ago. i would like to see an updated shot though.
the thing with using tapwater is that its chemically different in every geographic location so you CAN'T "just use tap". RO/DI on the other hand is going to be about the same anywhere you get it unless whoever is creating its system is busted. you just can't go wrong with that. if your smart and make sure you buy from someone reputable you will not run into that problem ever. i've never bought ro water in my almost 2 years now wondering what im getting because i always buy from someone dependable.
peeps, keep in mind, steaveweast has probably spent thousands on his system setting it up and he does have a slightly larger than average system... just slightly. im willing to bet he's spent upwards of 20k on that tank. but he does have a school of heniochus.... so pretty...... drool...... expense is all relative with size though. if you go into it with the right frame of mind you can cover your costs by fragging your corals on a regular basis because they are growing so well because you are using tried and true methods. hell i got about 100 dollars of free stuff from some xenia i grew for about 6 months. i originally got he xenia for free to boot.
ill post my pics if anyone wants me to put up myself
the thing with using tapwater is that its chemically different in every geographic location so you CAN'T "just use tap". RO/DI on the other hand is going to be about the same anywhere you get it unless whoever is creating its system is busted. you just can't go wrong with that. if your smart and make sure you buy from someone reputable you will not run into that problem ever. i've never bought ro water in my almost 2 years now wondering what im getting because i always buy from someone dependable.
peeps, keep in mind, steaveweast has probably spent thousands on his system setting it up and he does have a slightly larger than average system... just slightly. im willing to bet he's spent upwards of 20k on that tank. but he does have a school of heniochus.... so pretty...... drool...... expense is all relative with size though. if you go into it with the right frame of mind you can cover your costs by fragging your corals on a regular basis because they are growing so well because you are using tried and true methods. hell i got about 100 dollars of free stuff from some xenia i grew for about 6 months. i originally got he xenia for free to boot.
ill post my pics if anyone wants me to put up myself
sammystingray
Active Member
In the old days we used to tell people who came here if they weren't ready to spend thousands, then saltwater reef tanks wasn't a hobby for them. I hate to say it, and it sounds sooooooooo bad, but I still believe it today. Unless you are starting a nano tank, then you really do need cash to put into a tank.
The trouble with trying to talk people out of listening to people who tell newbies about "cheap methods" is just that.....they LOVE to hear that they can get into the hobby and have a "Steve Weast" tank for a few hundred dollars......it just isn't going to happen. I'm willing to bet Steve has single colonies worth atleast a few thousand dollars EACH if fragged out. That's a single coral, and some hobbiests have corals worth well over ten thousand dollars apiece.
It just isn't a cheap hobby.
I have to admit, what Steve posted here was VERY interesting. I once mentioned to the Doc on another forum about phosphates and sand, and he thought I was an idiot.......
hahahaha, he'll never have a tank like Steves, so I feel better now. Keep in mind as well that we mods here were on the DSB bandwagon for awhile, and we told people they should do it.......well since then, mine has been removed, and I have to admit I wish I never told anyone to do it. I'm not so sure they are doomed, but I do think they are an ugly waste of time. We all give bad advice from time to time, but some people are pushing the limits. You get what you pay for 95% of the time. If you want to save money, then think about DIY projects that are proven to work or that can't hurt anything.....such as DIY lighting that actually works, and build your own stand, etc etc....you can save a LOT of cash, but try not to think cheap inside the tank.
Rocks from the creek behind your house, a bunch of algae instead of filters, and tap water doesn't make a very nice reef tank.
Steve has 4200 watts of quality lighting......that is NOT cheap. To think you can get the same effect from an 88 cent bulb is moronic.
The trouble with trying to talk people out of listening to people who tell newbies about "cheap methods" is just that.....they LOVE to hear that they can get into the hobby and have a "Steve Weast" tank for a few hundred dollars......it just isn't going to happen. I'm willing to bet Steve has single colonies worth atleast a few thousand dollars EACH if fragged out. That's a single coral, and some hobbiests have corals worth well over ten thousand dollars apiece.
It just isn't a cheap hobby.
I have to admit, what Steve posted here was VERY interesting. I once mentioned to the Doc on another forum about phosphates and sand, and he thought I was an idiot.......
Rocks from the creek behind your house, a bunch of algae instead of filters, and tap water doesn't make a very nice reef tank.
Steve has 4200 watts of quality lighting......that is NOT cheap. To think you can get the same effect from an 88 cent bulb is moronic.
bdhough
Active Member
amen sammy i remember that dsb bandwagon. every post i read mentioned it. it always seemed a little too much sand to me. so that has changed now board wise? its not "the thing" to do?
on a broader note everyone keep in mind that the hobby of saltwater fish keeping is quite new still 20-30 years old, a little more maybe? as opposed to dog/horse/cat keeping which is probably centuries old.?.?.?.?.?.
i remember that dsb bandwagon. every post i read mentioned it. it always seemed a little too much sand to me. so that has changed now board wise? its not "the thing" to do?on a broader note everyone keep in mind that the hobby of saltwater fish keeping is quite new still 20-30 years old, a little more maybe? as opposed to dog/horse/cat keeping which is probably centuries old.?.?.?.?.?.
lutz493
Member
..........
In Feb I set-up my own Fuge/Sump I put in a 5" DSB in the tank and a 6"DSB in the Fuge just to make sure I had a ton of Sand. I'm also growing several different macros in this Fuge~
HA! Now to tear the entire thing down.
Now the question is - Is buying Deltec's unit for $100 going to give me anything better then a Lifegard unit for $55 if my Tank is 55 Gallons.
Thanks Steve for the posts, I'm looking forward to doing this overhaul and seeing the results.
What to do with my Pre-drilled 15H and 20L tanks!
In Feb I set-up my own Fuge/Sump I put in a 5" DSB in the tank and a 6"DSB in the Fuge just to make sure I had a ton of Sand. I'm also growing several different macros in this Fuge~
HA! Now to tear the entire thing down.
Now the question is - Is buying Deltec's unit for $100 going to give me anything better then a Lifegard unit for $55 if my Tank is 55 Gallons.
Thanks Steve for the posts, I'm looking forward to doing this overhaul and seeing the results.
What to do with my Pre-drilled 15H and 20L tanks!
sammystingray
Active Member
I wouldn't say southdown is a bad idea........although it's dead, serious sources from dedicated hobbiests such as Rob Toonen report that southdown has PERFECT grain sizes for sandbed life. Not that it's "pretty" or that it it's chreap, but Toonen actually sized the grains in it, and actually studied it. Add some life, and you're good to go.
I am much more cautious about jumping on any bandwagons though now. As just stated by bdhough, the whole hobby is VERY new, and new fads should be considered experimental no matter how well they seem to work.
I am much more cautious about jumping on any bandwagons though now. As just stated by bdhough, the whole hobby is VERY new, and new fads should be considered experimental no matter how well they seem to work.
nm reef
Active Member
Steve...I do apologise for the use of your name and of your pictures...the only reason I used the pics is because I sincerely believe you have what I personally consider to be the best home aquarium I have ever heard of...that said I appreciate your responses here and the input you have provided is yet another example of the point I am trying to make. That point being freely giving "advice" and "suggestions" and "direction" on how to set up and maintain a marine system is a very difficult proposition...I've found that the best advice etc. I've ever seen is very much like what you offered..."this is what I do and this is why and these are the results I've experienced"...but in some cases folks are way off the beaten path and attempt to offer so called expert opinions that may very well cause far more problems than they could ever solve.
Steve...I will freely and honestly say that your input here is intelligent and very interesting and I in no way intended to insult or degrade you in any way....and sir...you have no need to put up....in this hobby members of numerous hobby related forums place you and several others at the very top of the food chain....I meant no harm and I hope you took no offense.
My proposition is still the same...BB_BS....I stand by the premise of this thread....put up some results that can compare to the advice that counters your babble or shut up.....
Basically I personally do not want to hear or have to waste time countering your constant babble...and its my observation that in general the members here are fed up with your hi-jacking of these forums for your own self serving motives. We have lost good responsible members to your prattle and new members have tried to weave through the sermons you preach sometimes resulting in confussion and dispair......all are welcome here and all are challenged to put up or shut up...but no one should be allowed to cause the problems and disruption to the normal flow of experience and information that you have. So...lets see it...we don't wanna hear about it...we don't want to see you quote this person and post your comments....this is not your site or your forums...and we simply are tired of hearing it....I wanna see it...and I think the members would agree....SHUT UP AND JUST SIMPLY SHOW US HOW SUCCESSFUL YOUR AQUARIUM IS...we will decide if what you have is what we want...but I get the sense the members here are very tired of HEARING what you have to say! To the point some have left and that I can't tolerate.........
Steve...I will freely and honestly say that your input here is intelligent and very interesting and I in no way intended to insult or degrade you in any way....and sir...you have no need to put up....in this hobby members of numerous hobby related forums place you and several others at the very top of the food chain....I meant no harm and I hope you took no offense.
My proposition is still the same...BB_BS....I stand by the premise of this thread....put up some results that can compare to the advice that counters your babble or shut up.....
Basically I personally do not want to hear or have to waste time countering your constant babble...and its my observation that in general the members here are fed up with your hi-jacking of these forums for your own self serving motives. We have lost good responsible members to your prattle and new members have tried to weave through the sermons you preach sometimes resulting in confussion and dispair......all are welcome here and all are challenged to put up or shut up...but no one should be allowed to cause the problems and disruption to the normal flow of experience and information that you have. So...lets see it...we don't wanna hear about it...we don't want to see you quote this person and post your comments....this is not your site or your forums...and we simply are tired of hearing it....I wanna see it...and I think the members would agree....SHUT UP AND JUST SIMPLY SHOW US HOW SUCCESSFUL YOUR AQUARIUM IS...we will decide if what you have is what we want...but I get the sense the members here are very tired of HEARING what you have to say! To the point some have left and that I can't tolerate.........
rbmount
Active Member
To NM Reef: tell it all brother, tell it all! Well said. I have sat back and read his posts and shook my head in disbelief. I personally take Bob's advice with a grain of...nothing. Pics of his tank are proof enough. I am fairly new to SW and read this board every chance I can, I have made the tap water mistakes, and then bought a RO/DI unit and am dang glad I did. I will make mistakes in the future and learn from them. I am correcting one now... lighting. When I bought my 90, The guy said that 4 65w pc's would support most corals....they don't. So halides are on the way. I bought fish that weren't compatible, so for now I am living with them. What I did do right was get on this board,ask questinons, and read. to this I thank all responding members. I DO value Kip's knowledgeable responses and miss them. I've rambled long enough, so this is my 2 cents worth.
sammystingray
Active Member
Lutz493, I wouldn't tear anything down unless you are having problems. In a fuge I don't think a DSB matters, but I just don't like the sand coming five inches up the glass in my main tank. Many organisms use hydrogen sufide from reading that may be outdated, and I haven't caught up with. From my understanding, hydrogen sulfide levels expand and decrease with the load just like nitrates would do.......not keep adding up until a crash.
