The Sobering Facts

jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jovial
OK then, so are you saying after enough time a fertilized haploid cell always dies?
Well if it is fertilized then it wouldn't be haploid anymore. But in the end everything dies after enough time.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Sure a fetus could live in many cases after a certain point if it was seperated from its mother, however our gametes could live if we combined them too.
Why are you trying to belittle such a subject into a discussion of gametes? Does that make you feel better by discussing a fetus as a pair of combined gametes?
A gamete is no different than any other cell in our body. It's basically a copy of yourself, so you can do with them as you wish.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Oh, forgot to coment on the punishment. It makes sense to ease into a proper punishment, but what should it end up as? I mean murder is murder right? And if abortion is murder should eventually the punishment for abortion be death?
Most murderers do not get the death penalty. And many that oppose abortion also oppose the death penalty.
 
jovial

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Well if it is fertilized then it wouldn't be haploid anymore. But in the end everything dies after enough time.

If a gamet is not fertilized, it dies (that is what happens during menstruation in women). If it is fertilized, then you get a diploid zygote which is the fertilized egg which then goes through mitosis and divides into similar cells and forms an embryo. As the cells in the embryo divide they become more specific in shape and function forming a fetus. Cells of the fetus divide even more (through mitosis) and become even more specific until finally an individual is formed (child).
A haploid cell won't survive unless it is fertilized, which ties in to post 53.
Yes, in the end everything living dies but does this mean that nothing deserves to live because it will eventually die.
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darknes
Why are you trying to belittle such a subject into a discussion of gametes? Does that make you feel better by discussing a fetus as a pair of combined gametes?
A gamete is no different than any other cell in our body. It's basically a copy of yourself, so you can do with them as you wish.
I just want to know where people draw the line and why.
Also a gamete is different than other cells because it is haploid and not diploid. But if my gamete is mine to do with, and a females is hers to do with what they wish, how is the combination of these gametes the shared property of the male and female.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I just want to know where people draw the line and why.
Well, I draw the line at fertilization. At that point, it is its own organism, with its own unique DNA, which will form a fetus unless killed.
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jovial
If a gamet is not fertilized, it dies (that is what happens during menstruation in women). If it is fertilized, then you get a diploid zygote which is the fertilized egg which then goes through mitosis and divides into similar cells and forms an embryo. As the cells in the embryo divide they become more specific in shape and function forming a fetus. Cells of the fetus divide even more (through mitosis) and become even more specific until finally an individual is formed (child).
A haploid cell won't survive unless it is fertilized, which ties in to post 53.
Yes, in the end everything living dies but does this mean that nothing deserves to live because it will eventually die.
And?
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darknes
Well, I draw the line at fertilization. At that point, it is its own organism, with its own unique DNA, which will form a fetus unless killed.
I understand the logic behind drawing the line there, it is probably one of the clearer lines that have been drawn.
 
jovial

jovial

Member

Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I just want to know where people draw the line and why.
Also a gamete is different than other cells because it is haploid and not diploid. But if my gamete is mine to do with, and a females is hers to do with what they wish, how is the combination of these gametes the shared property of the male and female.
Because both male and female contributions need to be made to change it into anything other than a gamete. The gamete doesent become anything else unless fertilized. Once fertilized the change takes place. Your gamete is legally yours to do with what you want. However once the gamete is fertilized what is the difference between stopping it at that point or 9 months later?
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member

Originally Posted by Jovial
Because both male and female contributions need to be made to change it into anything other than a gamete. The gamete doesent become anything else unless fertilized. Once fertilized the change takes place. Your gamete is legally yours to do with what you want. However when the gamete is fertilized what is the difference between stopping it at that point or 9 months later?
Agian it is a line that must be drawn. Right now the law gives the woman the legal right to decide what to do with the fetus.
What I think is a far more important question than where the line should be is what the penalty should be if abortion is made illegal.
 
jovial

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
Agian it is a line that must be drawn. Right now the law gives the woman the legal right to decide what to do with the fetus.
What I think is a far more important question than where the line should be is what the penalty should be if abortion is made illegal.
I agree with Darkness... at fertilization.
What should the penalty be? I need to think about it more. What do you think it should be?
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jovial
I agree with Darkness... at fertilization.
What should the penalty be. I need to think about it more.
I agree it is a difficult question about the punishment. That is why I wanted to bring it up.
*edit*
As far as what I think it should be. I personally think that the logical punishment for abortion, if it is made illegal because it is murder, should be the death penalty.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Honestly, if a society agrees that abortion should be illegal and is basically murder, why should it not be given the penalty of murder?
I agree it's hard to understand.
Do you think that hundreds of years ago in the South people thought killing a slave was the same as killing a white man? It took time to understand the morality that killing a black man was the same as killing a white man. Obviously, some still don't have that perception.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
As far as what I think it should be. I personally think that the logical punishment for abortion, if it is made illegal because it is murder, should be the death penalty.
I don't know if I'd say the death penalty. Most murderers don't get the death penalty. But I get what you're saying.
 
jerthunter

jerthunter

Active Member
Originally Posted by Darknes
I don't know if I'd say the death penalty. Most murderers don't get the death penalty. But I get what you're saying.
I suppose you are right. Many people who protest abortion also protest the death penalty so maybe life in prison would be better.
 
darknes

darknes

Active Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
It will be interesting to see what society decides on this matter over time. I have no guesses.
I agree.
If I had to guess, I'd say eventually it will be illegal. However, the punishment will be very slim, if any.
 
jovial

jovial

Member
Originally Posted by Jerthunter
I agree it is a difficult question about the punishment. That is why I wanted to bring it up.
*edit*
As far as what I think it should be. I personally think that the logical punishment for abortion, if it is made illegal because it is murder, should be the death penalty.
I found this sentence in a law guide. http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m150.htm
To constitute a birth, so as to make the killing of a child murder, the whole body must be detached from that of the mother; but if it has come wholly forth, but is still connected by the umbilical chord, such killing will be murder.
So if the baby is killed 5 minutes prior to being born it is considered an abortion and is legal? To suffer life in prison would seem to be more painful than being put to death.
 
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